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Clementine
04-21-2015, 11:31 AM
Hello Knights!

Yesterday we announced the winner for the recent Design a Dragonforged Armor Contest (http://forums.gree.net/showthread.php?114672-Player-Appreciation-Month-Design-A-Dragonforged-Armor-Voting!). Since announcing there has been a great deal of uproar from players across all of our Community channels (Forums, Twitter, FB, Tumblr). We have heard players shaming the winning design, wondering why their design wasn't selected or didn't win, accusing others of cheating, wondering if the voting was fair, or if the contest was rigged. This kind of behavior was also exhibited by many when the ten finalists were chosen. What was supposed to be a fun activity for the Community has now caused unrest.

In partnership with the Developers we chose to run these contests to give the players and opportunity to share your passion for the game, and to see your visions come to life. The first time we ran these contests, back in December, we were blown away by the amount of participation. It was incredible to see all your amazing ideas and designs. There were many who wanted to participate, who wanted to submit a design, but did not want to sign up for the forums. So for this second round, we added another way to submit entries (via email). We received over 2X the number of submissions for the Dragonforged Armor Contest as a result. A fantastic success!

Unfortunately, despite our rules that outlined the design needed to be original, we did receive a number of entries which had to be disqualified due to stealing the work of others and trying to pass it off as their own. Unfortunately one of these made it to the finalists, and had to be removed. This is our fault. We should have been more thorough in checking all entries, and we should have been more clear what was allowed/prohibited. For future contests we will ensure that we are very clear and thorough. We encourage submissions that are "inspired by" other pieces of work, of course. However, copying another individual or company's work, or straight up stealing it and trying to pass it off as your own, this is not only against the rules, but unpleasant and unsavory behavior.

With the announcement of the finalists many complained about why theirs wasn't chosen. Instead of congratulating their fellow KnD players who were chosen, some starting accusing others of cheating. Many felt their drawing was better than a finalist (or two), or they felt theirs was more unique or original. We need to make it clear that finalists were not chosen because of the quality of their artwork, but because we thought their IDEA was good and would be a great addition to the Knights and Dragons game. We had to choose TEN finalists from a pool of over 400 submissions. While we wish we could have chosen all of them, it simply wasn't possible.

And now onto the voting and selection of the winner. By allowing players to submit via forums AND email, we of course had to reconsider how players could vote for the winning design. Last time we forced players to vote via the forums. This was a good solution, overall, however we did see individuals creating multiple accounts just to vote. To prevent this, and allow players who aren't on the forums to vote, we decided to create a survey. In the creation of the survey we chose to use Cookies as a way to prevent users from voting multiple times. We could have selected to limit it to IPs, however we knew that many people would want to ask their family/roommates/classmates/colleagues to vote for their design (which we of course encourage), so we chose otherwise.

Unfortunately, despite being asked to vote only once, a number of individuals chose to cheat. A simple reset/clear of cookies, and they could vote again. For every vote received we can see Date, Time, IP, Location (Longitude/Latitude), Device/OS, and more. A couple of the entries received a massive number of votes (hundreds) from the same exact IP/Device/OS/Location, all within a five minute window. The system quickly flagged this as "suspicious behavior" and we felt that the only thing we could do was disqualify these votes, as we had no sure way to prove their legitimacy.

For future contests, if we choose to run them again, we will continue to look at ways to improve the voting system. We do not want to remove the "Community Voted" aspect of the contest, as we feel it is fun and important for you guys to have a say. However if we are unable to find a voting solution that consistently is fair and works, then we, the Community and Development teams, will look to select the winner. For the next contest voting, Design an Epic Boss, we will be locking it by IP (look for the voting to open up soon). We sincerely hope that all players will "play fair" and not try and cheat this system. We encourage all finalists/entrants to ask their friends and family to vote for their design, however we ask that you encourage them to do so in a manner that our system will not flag as suspicious. Have them vote from home, on their own time, and their own devices.

We write this post so that you, our valued community, can better understand the choices that were made, and why they were made. We also write it so that you have a place to discuss with us, and each other, how we can work together to continue to run these awesome contests in a manner that is fun and fair for all.

Thank you!

Anton-kun
04-21-2015, 12:40 PM
I want to thank you for making this post and sharing the thoughts of the Community and Development teams with us. Unfortunately these contests always seem to spawn so much drama and it's really sad, considering the fact that it's supposed to be something fun and a way to let us players show our creativity and passion for the game. I know that GREE is getting a lot of hate for these contests, which just isn't right, but of course there are plenty of room for improvements in the future. Hopefully your post can make it easier for some players to see things from a different perspective. :)

There are a couple of things I need to get off my chest. First of all, everyone has to admit that the contest is just a competition to see who can gather the most votes from friends/family/guild members, etc. The players who actually vote for their favorite entry are overshadowed by those voting for people they know. I can't come up with a decent solution to this, but perhaps the Community and Development team can choose one winner and the community the other? If you feel that two winners each time is a bit too much, then I'd rather have a 50/50 system where both the community and the team gets to decide a winner together. Just brainstorming some random ideas. But I actually feel that this new voting system took away the "Community Voted" aspect of the contest more than it strengthened it. You also sacrificed the transparency for reaching out to more people.

I saw Reversal's post on Facebook now after writing this and I must say that his suggestion is pretty much what I was imagining but more fleshed out.

The second thing is mostly directed towards some people on the Facebook page. Can we stop all the drama please? No one wants drama. Stop accusing others of cheating when you have 0 proof. Especially when you're just throwing out hollow accusations. Those "x traced y" comments just make me want to cringe. These people don't understand how much work that goes into a piece of artwork.

I really hope that you don't let all the hate cloud your decisions. The community loves these contests and no one wants to see all of these negative comments clogging the Facebook page. Let me think for a short while and I'll try to post something more helpful since I just have my own thoughts to share for now. Hopefully the next contest will avoid these problems and will be remembered as a fun event like it is intended to be. ^^

jetfire03
04-21-2015, 01:31 PM
I'm still confused at why my armor design, Forsaken Slaygear, was not posted as in the top 10 armors in the final standings?

katduCouteau
04-21-2015, 01:41 PM
I'm still confused at why my armor design, Forsaken Slaygear, was not posted as in the top 10 armors in the final standings?

Okay, so first, they said they had over 400 entries. They had to pick 10. That's a 2.5% chance for u to make top 10. You didn't make it, due to the choking of entries down to 10. That's it. Move on.

Other than that, I think what should really happen is let the community decide the top 10 and let Gree itself decide which armor(s) are suitable for being implemented into the game. Being a contestant, I only hope that if this system is implemented, that Gree may choose more than one armor if they deem so, from the community top 10 to put into the game :)

Oh and PS, I still haven't gotten my Darkscale+ yet -.-|||

And I love what you did with my winning entry last time!! ��

Phill - Immortal GM
04-21-2015, 01:43 PM
Simple solution, as forwarded to Relic before:

- Upon logging into Knights and Dragons, the notices pop up. Build finalists into these notices.
- Give players a few gems, 3-5, for voting to make sure it isn't overlooked.
- Upon clicking the notice-section regarding voting, a pop up opens, kind of like when opening the FAQ, there you can vote, straight from your device.
- Limit this to, not just cookies, but Device IP and immediate IP range

All you do with voting via Social media is give it to the people that have the biggest fanbase, community, whatsoever.

Honestly, it could have gone worse. Don't feel discouraged by the hate you receive for these competitions or the way you are doing them. Just try to progress each time. Like with heroic, but the other way around :P

Good luck

legalious
04-21-2015, 01:46 PM
I'm still confused at why my armor design, Forsaken Slaygear, was not posted as in the top 10 armors in the final standings?

It was in the top 10. Your entry was #8 in the final version of the contest.

jetfire03
04-21-2015, 01:46 PM
Okay, so first, they said they had over 400 entries. They had to pick 10. That's a 2.5% chance for u to make top 10. You didn't make it, due to the choking of entries down to 10. That's it. Move on.

Other than that, I think what should really happen is let the community decide the top 10 and let Gree itself decide which armor(s) are suitable for being implemented into the game. Being a contestant, I only hope that if this system is implemented, that Gree may choose more than one armor if they deem so, from the community top 10 to put into the game :)

Oh and PS, I still haven't gotten my Darkscale+ yet -.-|||

And I love what you did with my winning entry last time!! ��


I made the top ten, you can see forsaken slaygear on the voting page...

jetfire03
04-21-2015, 01:47 PM
It was in the top 10. Your entry was #8 in the final version of the contest.

Thank you all for participating in the Design a Dragonforged Armor Contest! Here are the results (in order):
1st: Obsidian Forged Drakemail
2nd: SoulSage Robes
3rd: Divine Warden
4th: Tusk Warlord Battlesuit
5th: Fireheart Regalia
6th: Steampunk Samurai Regalia
7th: Firestorm Robes
8th: Drakeanic Airplate
9th: Bright of Dragonkin

This was on the Facebook page... I don't know why, but forsaken slaygear isn't on it. But thanks for the clarification.

Helios_Max
04-21-2015, 02:06 PM
Simple solution, as forwarded to Relic before:

- Upon logging into Knights and Dragons, the notices pop up. Build finalists into these notices.
- Give players a few gems, 3-5, for voting to make sure it isn't overlooked.
- Upon clicking the notice-section regarding voting, a pop up opens, kind of like when opening the FAQ, there you can vote, straight from your device.
- Limit this to, not just cookies, but Device IP and immediate IP range

All you do with voting via Social media is give it to the people that have the biggest fanbase, community, whatsoever.

Honestly, it could have gone worse. Don't feel discouraged by the hate you receive for these competitions or the way you are doing them. Just try to progress each time. Like with heroic, but the other way around :P

Good luck

I like more this idea. This eliminates any chance of cheating, hacking etc. In my opinion, GREE should eliminate the voting system from forum and add them into the game. In this way, the artists could have at least a chance to be rewarded by their merit, not because someone asks for help or making a video and publish it into YouTube. I dunno if they will give to the players 3-5 gems individual Phill, that would cause a little loss to their profit but if they give like I dunno, some Fusion Boosts or Epics then yes, that would help a lot the new players to level up their progress and get better armors. +1 for this way, no doubt.

Helios_Max
04-21-2015, 02:09 PM
Thank you all for participating in the Design a Dragonforged Armor Contest! Here are the results (in order):
1st: Obsidian Forged Drakemail
2nd: SoulSage Robes
3rd: Divine Warden
4th: Tusk Warlord Battlesuit
5th: Fireheart Regalia
6th: Steampunk Samurai Regalia
7th: Firestorm Robes
8th: Drakeanic Airplate
9th: Bright of Dragonkin

This was on the Facebook page... I don't know why, but forsaken slaygear isn't on it. But thanks for the clarification.

That's really weird indeed Jetfire. I still don't understand why my Bright of Dragonkin is on this list. They removed it by my request and publish it as a Epic Boss.

Clementine
04-21-2015, 02:11 PM
Thank you all for participating in the Design a Dragonforged Armor Contest! Here are the results (in order):
1st: Obsidian Forged Drakemail
2nd: SoulSage Robes
3rd: Divine Warden
4th: Tusk Warlord Battlesuit
5th: Fireheart Regalia
6th: Steampunk Samurai Regalia
7th: Firestorm Robes
8th: Drakeanic Airplate
9th: Bright of Dragonkin

This was on the Facebook page... I don't know why, but forsaken slaygear isn't on it. But thanks for the clarification.

My apologies your entry was missed from the list! The correct order is:

Obsidian Forged Drakemail
SoulSage Robes
Divine Warden
Tusk Warlord Battlesuit
Fireheart Regalia
Steampunk Samurai Regalia
Firestorm Robes
Forsaken Slaygear
Drakeanic Airplate
Bright of Dragonkin - Removed by Request

jetfire03
04-21-2015, 02:13 PM
My apologies your entry was missed from the list! The correct order is:

Obsidian Forged Drakemail
SoulSage Robes
Divine Warden
Tusk Warlord Battlesuit
Fireheart Regalia
Steampunk Samurai Regalia
Firestorm Robes
Forsaken Slaygear
Drakeanic Airplate
Bright of Dragonkin

Thanks for your clarification!

Clementine
04-21-2015, 02:19 PM
I like more this idea. This eliminates any chance of cheating, hacking etc. In my opinion, GREE should eliminate the voting system from forum and add them into the game. In this way, the artists could have at least a chance to be rewarded by their merit, not because someone asks for help or making a video and publish it into YouTube. I dunno if they will give to the players 3-5 gems individual Phill, that would cause a little loss to their profit but if they give like I dunno, some Fusion Boosts or Epics then yes, that would help a lot the new players to level up their progress and get better armors. +1 for this way, no doubt.

This is definitely an ideal solution! However since it requires engineering and development from the Game Developers, this will be difficult to implement, as there are many higher priority bugs/fixes and gameplay ideas that need to be addressed/implemented first. We will definitely suggest it to the Developers, however it is likely that it will not be implemented in the near future.

Helios_Max
04-21-2015, 02:27 PM
This is definitely an ideal solution! However since it requires engineering and development from the Game Developers, this will be difficult to implement, as there are many higher priority bugs/fixes and gameplay ideas that need to be addressed/implemented first. We will definitely suggest it to the Developers, however it is likely that it will not be implemented in the near future.

I hope you guys will add it later in the game. This is the ultimate solution for these contests. I honestly was shocked when Obsidian got top 1, leaving behind great entries. And one more thing Clementine. The Darkscale + for me and Kathy? XD You guys told me that today we'll receive it.

P.S: The Beta version really improves a lot the older devices, but the only thing that I don't understand is if all armors will have a bonus stats from the sets.

Anton-kun
04-21-2015, 02:30 PM
This is definitely an ideal solution! However since it requires engineering and development from the Game Developers, this will be difficult to implement, as there are many higher priority bugs/fixes and gameplay ideas that need to be addressed/implemented first. We will definitely suggest it to the Developers, however it is likely that it will not be implemented in the near future.

+1

By moving voting to the game, the voting will most likely represent the community's choice (the persons who actually are playing the game) without having any obvious bias like now. And I bet that a lot of KnD players don't know about the contest even if it was advertised in the notices. Perhaps it will be easier to reach out to them this way too.

On another note, I want to share some thoughts regarding the whole idea of the design contests. In my opinion, it's a really good chance for players to present concepts to the developers and for the developers to be inspired. I don't think that a lot of harm will be done if the developers pick some concepts they like from time to time without them necessarily holding a contest each time. Again, it's my opinion, but I feel that the point of player-made concepts is to get variety. What's the point of asking a player to design a armor in the same vein as the already existing armors? I think that it'd be a waste to not get inspiration from the huge amount of entries - a lot of them being really different from the armors in-game.

Phill - Immortal GM
04-21-2015, 02:51 PM
This is definitely an ideal solution! However since it requires engineering and development from the Game Developers, this will be difficult to implement, as there are many higher priority bugs/fixes and gameplay ideas that need to be addressed/implemented first. We will definitely suggest it to the Developers, however it is likely that it will not be implemented in the near future.

It's good to set priorities. I guess, the next DF contest will be a bit out, right?
Of course it will take effort, all great changes do. It is something worthwhile investing time in, however.

Imagine if the time spent on this would eliminate the time spent for you/others on fixing up the drama the current system caused.

I'm sure you will find something that works. Cheers

Clementine
04-21-2015, 03:05 PM
+1

By moving voting to the game, the voting will most likely represent the community's choice (the persons who actually are playing the game) without having any obvious bias like now. And I bet that a lot of KnD players don't know about the contest even if it was advertised in the notices. Perhaps it will be easier to reach out to them this way too.

Definitely a long term goal, but just remember we are at the whim of the Developers and they may not have the opportunity to add this into the game for quite awhile. In the meantime, for future contests, I do like the idea of us choosing 25-50, allowing the Community to select the ten finalists, and then us choosing the winner. And perhaps the one that gets the most vote from the community can be a second winner.


On another note, I want to share some thoughts regarding the whole idea of the design contests. In my opinion, it's a really good chance for players to present concepts to the developers and for the developers to be inspired. I don't think that a lot of harm will be done if the developers pick some concepts they like from time to time without them necessarily holding a contest each time. Again, it's my opinion, but I feel that the point of player-made concepts is to get variety. What's the point of asking a player to design a armor in the same vein as the already existing armors? I think that it'd be a waste to not get inspiration from the huge amount of entries - a lot of them being really different from the armors in-game.

Definitely a good idea! We do want to make sure if a player design inspires an idea, that the players get recognition (I know some folks would be very angry if their idea inspired an armor in game and they didn't get credit). Since we received so many amazing entries and can't implement them all, we do plan to feature some of the amazing work across our multiple channels!

Clementine
04-21-2015, 03:07 PM
It's good to set priorities. I guess, the next DF contest will be a bit out, right?
Of course it will take effort, all great changes do. It is something worthwhile investing time in, however.

Imagine if the time spent on this would eliminate the time spent for you/others on fixing up the drama the current system caused.

I'm sure you will find something that works. Cheers

The next contest wont be too far out! We are thinking June for the next one! We wont have the system implemented in the game by then, however we don't want to put these awesome and fun events on hold while that functionality is developed, particularly since it may not be put on the schedule for a very long time. The Developers have a huge queue of things to work on and plan months and months in advance!

Also, don't forget that we, the Community Management team, don't actually code anything in the game. You really don't want us touching the code, we would break it!

katduCouteau
04-21-2015, 03:52 PM
Clementine you said:
Definitely a long term goal, but just remember we are at the whim of the Developers and they may not have the opportunity to add this into the game for quite awhile. In the meantime, for future contests, I do like the idea of us choosing 25-50, allowing the Community to select the ten finalists, and then us choosing the winner. And perhaps the one that gets the most vote from the community can be a second winner.

I love this idea ~!!! ^

And if someone's work was to inspire a future armor, would they be credited that inspired armor or no?

Phill - Immortal GM
04-21-2015, 03:56 PM
Also, don't forget that we, the Community Management team, don't actually code anything in the game. You really don't want us touching the code, we would break it!

Yeah, please don't :P
What I meant is that after all you are one team, one company. Meaning time saved on one front is essentially time saved on another one, too.

June is pretty far out in terms of adding something like this, but I do understand there are more important things to be fixed and looking at the current game I totally agree.

Clementine
04-21-2015, 04:31 PM
And if someone's work was to inspire a future armor, would they be credited that inspired armor or no?

That is the golden question and something that we would have to figure out! I want to give recognition when necessary, of course, but not sure if that means a shout out by name, Gems, or the armor itself.

Clementine
04-21-2015, 04:51 PM
June is pretty far out in terms of adding something like this, but I do understand there are more important things to be fixed and looking at the current game I totally agree.

June is pretty far out for us, but for Developers who have the plan mapped out for the next 3-6 months, June is right around the corner!

Anarchos
04-30-2015, 10:10 AM
Since there are couples who play this game, and roommates will play it too, I would limit it to 4 or 5 votes per IP address ( and consult devices/OS info as well). Anything beyond that would be pushing it.

On a side note: I'm a developer at my job for a different company and for every new feature which gets added to anything there are a whole list of things which needs done (checking to make sure bugs weren't introduced, making sure developer X's code plays nice with Developer Y's code, updating or changing database tables, checking performance levels, checking game balance, etc. etc. ad nauseum). So kudos to the whole KnD team!

roookey1
04-30-2015, 01:07 PM
I didn't follow the contest stuff very closely, but extremely nice to hear some 'official' Gree feedback on questions asked by the customers, thanks for taking the time Clementine!