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View Full Version : Really Long Post of the Day #2: Economy Quasi-Tramp Stamp Style



MajorOffensive
05-03-2012, 05:10 PM
As many who still frequent this forum recall, Tramp Stamp set the standard for economic analysis from some of the first plist dumps. If you haven't read his work, I recommend it. There is a nice blog which has his original Economy Planning post intact. His basic mantra was to hit the A buildings hard, except perhaps for his skepticism of the Nightclub, for the A buildings The B Buildings, due to their slower growth, were side shows he only built to level 1 so he could sell them without abandoning significant investment. After all, A buildings at level 10 provide 75 times their base, while B buildings provide only 30 times theirs. Small upgrades enable you to save for these fast-growers. For both sets of buildings, the cost of upgrades is 167% of the previous level. $1M becomes $1.67M. The faster upgrading B Buildings like the Dominican mess with this a little, though, IMO. More on this later.

Personally, I consider this a mistake. Maybe it is just that nagging part of me that wants all cash buildings at level 10 for the sake of completion. Or maybe it is that B buildings might actually offer significant earnings. Of course you long-time players realize this and I sound quite silly. But these guides are usually for early- to mid-game players who wish to turn their economies around. Further, I suggest those who dismiss the Nightclub for its 6 hour pay period or its price tag seriously reconsider. I'll get to that.

I don't think Tramp Stamp went quite far enough in determining what is a valuable upgrade. Value for what you can save in a few days isn't enough. Some others claim ROI is king, while others claim ROI/square is the dominant metric. Someone seriously argued space was the most limiting factor. I, however, am not immortal. And I would like to see a kickass economy within my lifetime. Which is doable, if you aren't so cheap you rarely expand your hood. If you plan to play long-term, the money for expansions will come to you, but you can only do so much with your time.

And here is my driving cost: my time. For me, the money buildings equation boils down to this: What gives me the most money per day for my time spent doing these things: saving, building/upgrading, and, perhaps to a much lesser degree, lost Income-Days during upgrade time. Most people never make it past the ROI per upgrade Time, and this approach does have a strong following. But savings time can be so much greater. For instance, by the time I am ready to start saving to build my first Nightclub, it will take me 12 days to save in addition to its six day build time. Why does the savings time matter more than the savings cost? Because BMFBs (Big Mother Fing Buildings) become more critical the less time you save for them, regardless of their cost. The upgrade times are constant, but the decreased savings time provides flat out more money for the time invested in the saving, building, etc.

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First, the low level buildings. The A pattern Buildings are all the buildings to level 8, plus all the Mafia requirement Buildings. I won't list them because I'm lazy and there are at least 8 public spreadsheets that all already do in detail. Long-time players may tell you two things: First, that low level buildings are worthless late game. Two, that low level A buildings should be sold for space for higher level B buildings. I think both of these ideas are mistakes.

Would I trade a Warehouse for a Loft? Absolutely! But do I have to? No. What do I gain by doing so? By the point you should be building lofts, you save at best a fraction of $1M. Why a fraction? Every upgrade increases by more than just the space for one building. I can build several. All my tiny buildings every one else would tell me to sell at almost level 100? They provide me something like 200K+ a day. They can max out at 500K or so a day, if you include the Italian Restaurants. By using all the dirt-cheap space from the start, I can pay for upgrades so I can fit these bigger buildings. And then some.

TL;DR: Is their contribution small? Absolutely. Is it shrinking proportionally every day? You bet. Space efficient? F your mother. Why keep them? They add value over time to relatively cheap space and represent an irrecoverable time investment. The longer I keep them, the more irrecoverable time I have invested.

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Now, for the middle stuff, like Wholesale Warehouse. Short version, space kinda matters here. At some point, it costs millions, and the big 8x8s just don't cut it. They barely keep up, and they are enormous. They just take up too much space for me. Even other buildings at that point aren't so appealing. They aren't worth the time to either expand for or swap out. They just don't earn fast enough, so my new buildings lapsed during this period. I like having my Chinese Restaurants, but by the time it comes to Brownstones... eeeeeehhh. *shrugs* Up to this point, I'm largely with Tramp Stamp. Movie Theatres and Lofts all the way. Well, not literally, but quite a ways. They will make love-children with your investors.

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End-game, for a B Building to outclass an A Building, its base income must be 2.5 times the value of the corresponding A Building for a given period of time, clearly demonstrated by the multiplier ratio A:B, 75:30. Now, obviously they must be considered adjusted for collections per day to be accurate. A Dominican Restaurant (as a player favorite) ultimately ends up earning what a Movie Theatre does at level 10 per collection. But the Movie Theatre earns twice as often. And costs roughly the same.

However, early on the Dominican Restaurant makes more money. Remember how it starts about 2.5 times higher for the same price? Clearly this build is an early B Building win. But over time, the growth of the Movie Theatre makes it more appealing per upgrade, and the Dominican Restaurant less so

Consider also that the cost of B buildings is usually higher for daily income gain as you upgrade. This goes back to them having a slower growth rate. Hence why I generally keep B's at level 3. The costs ramp up faster than the growth. They are fine later on if they are cheap upgrades. Though lower A Buildings normally provide better ROI while you save for big stuff.

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So what's good after the Loft? I like the Beach Nightclub at level 3. Helps me have enough money to open boxes during events every hour. But it is 7x7 and hourly collection. Everyone knows about the ugly Crematorium: fugly ass, 24hr building with decent income. And an ungodly build time for its position in the list. Its income is okay, and its long build/upgrade times give you plenty of time to save moar muneys.

In Tramp Stamp's work, there is a list of buildings Funzio added a while back. These include the Upscale Club, Dominican Restaurant and Wholesale Warehouses, among others. These are definitely still B Buildings, but they have quick build and upgrade times early on. I already said I wouldn't bother with a WW. And I haven't, and not because 18 hour collection cycles are weird. Some of these are worthwhile depending on how you like to collect, but the two chief among them are the Dominican (24 hour collection with small size and good low building level income) and the Upscale Club.

The latter also has a 24 hour collection, and while available at level 70, its income will kick a Loft's landlord in the balls. This is a phenomenal building that I think is a must-have. It has lots of appeal for nearly everyone, even the Space Whores. IIRC, it is only 5x6, collects 24hrs like long-cycle collectors love, it builds and upgrades very quickly, and at Level 3 two make more than a Level 1 Nightclub, for a little more money. This is like the USSR chopping up Germany's industry and shipping it to Siberia post-war: they must have used a cheat code or something.
TL;DR: WHY U NO HAVE UPSCALE!?!?!?!??!?!?!@J:J!@#!?!??
Don't like the Nightclub's 6-hour collection period? Hate 8x8 Buildings? Don't like holding on to $40M all at once? Well try the Pos-T-Vac now for only... Oops, wrong product. But seriously, buy it in pieces. It's great.

You know what's really wonderful? Having a Nightclub-level boost without having to save forty-fing-million at one time. You know what's very nice? That it takes slightly less long to gather all this money for the upgrades because I'm upgrading two buildings piecemeal. You know what level 70 players will take for granted? That two of this building at level 3 can shave days off a Nightclub savings. When I compare the two Upscale Clubs to level 3 against the one Nightclub to Level 2, I spend 9 days to save 8.

Oh wait! You just lost a day!
But when I save to build my second Nightclub, I already have the extra income ready to kick ass while the first is upgrading, and still follow up the first Nightclub with respectable income. I shave more days off. Level three is pushing it a little at that point. Overall, the first Nightclub would be better than going ahead with the Level 3 upgrades on the Upscale Club short term. But it pays off over time.

The interesting thing is that at $10M income a day, if you calculate (daily income gain)/(savings time+upgrade time) the Upscale Club's level 3 upgrade actually comes out ahead of the Level 1 Nightclub by just a little. But over time it probably won't because you can get the Nightclub's obscene growth rate into play faster.

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I have to say, none of the buildings next up look all that appealing until you get to the Condo and Credit Agency. They both provide a nice boost for the first level or maaaaybe two. And you still don't have to save $40M at one time. But I expect that by the time I PvP my way 12 levels up to the Condo, I will already be well on my way to my first Nightclub, if not level 2.

And why do I advocate upgrading to Level 2 before building a second Nightclub? Remember kids: a 27% increase in time investment is worth 200% gain. And this was at about $2.5M a day. If you double that, the time increase is only 15%. But you have probably squandered a bit of time on lower payout buildings.

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But you're still focused on the Nightclub with its nasty 6-hour payout!
I sure am. Why? Because at level 10 it's still better than the level 165 Casino at level 10... even if you only collect twice a day. If it is robbed one of those times... well, it's still cheaper to build and upgrade, so yes, it still is at least as good on the whole. It doesn't take long to overtake the Casino. Plus, it's available as soon as you can get 300 mafia, so you don't have to level up to the Indian-players-with-too-much-disposable-money bracket.

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I'll go ahead and raise my own one objection to this entire post:
Y U NO USE TRAMPY MATH?

I'm lazy, for one. And for another, it all depends on your collection cycles. If you collect throughout the day, like me, all those little buildings upgraded a little make lots of sense. They add up. But for less frequent collectors, your income is generally much smaller until much later on, and it's hard for you to catch up. Because I can do both. The math changes a lot. For every significant upgrade you make, your savings time can change drastically. It is a method of constant re-evaluation, and planning ahead several steps must take this into account.

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Mega TL;DR: In general, MT, Loft, NC are your big priorities at varying stages of the game. B Buildings are there to help fund them, and are fine when you aren't spending relatively huge sums of money for relatively small gains. As the biggest earner in the game, the Nightclub outpaces its biggest competition such that ultimately, even collected only twice a day, it earns more than the Casino for cheaper upgrades.

Thanks for playing! Oh, and please leave your fish at the door.


EDIT: I am finally adding the guidline formula. Hopefully this helps clear things up a little and gives players a more user-friendly format than a text wall.

The formula should have these components:

S = sum of the incomes of all buildings per day
I = income gain of upgrade in question per day
U = time cost of upgrade
Lost-income *only for level 2+ upgrades; zero for new buildings* = (current building income per day)*U
Savings-time = (cost of upgrade+Lost-income)/(S) *adding the Lost-income here rolls the time-cost during the upgrade forward to before it ever occurs; this is optional, but seems appropriate considering saving starts when your building or upgrading functions are engaged*

Time-cost = (I)/(U+Savings-time)

This formula is the reverse of RoI. Instead of calculating how quickly an upgrade pays itself off, you see how quickly you can afford to build something; it accounts for your entire system's resources, not just the gain of one. Generally, as you go up the list ROI gradually decreases, depending on your actual collection frequency. But the Time-cost changes in interesting ways depending on how frequently you collect certain kinds of buildings and how much your income grows. What ends up happening is a graduation to larger upgrades per unit time invested when it makes sense according to your income.

Jazz
05-03-2012, 05:20 PM
Just finished reading, excellent post. But wtf does TL;DR mean?

Burn
05-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Holy moley, that is a lot of alphabetti spaghetti you've used up there.

I have to confess, I haven't read it all, but I got far enough to read that you have factored 'time' into the equation, so I will defo read this in full tomorrow (some of the older economy stuff left me cold, because it assumed I was going to play CC forever - I'm thinking 6 months tops).

Kudos for taking the time to share this.

Silverstripe
05-03-2012, 05:50 PM
Just finished reading, excellent post. But wtf does TL;DR mean?

Too long, didn't read

Jazz
05-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Too long, didn't read

Got it. Thanks silverstripe!

Euchred
05-03-2012, 07:55 PM
A good post and not a bad read but I've been there done that.

Build your nightclubs!

Tramp Stamp
05-03-2012, 10:40 PM
Hello,

I pushed Nightclubs pretty hard. I think duder was the other primary proponent. There were others, like plux, but they weren't posting when I was most active. I agree I didn't go far enough in analysis. I had a 3rd revision to the plan in mind but lost interest in the game before writing it, though I did present an outline in my farewell post. The condensed version is that gold-equivalent buildings are worth mixing and matching but regular Type Bs don't come into play until the Internet Company and only in limited fashion. Regular Type Bs upgrades decay rapidly in value while gold-equivalents hang in. High level gold buildings are also very well worth it and are quite underrated from what I saw in others' hoods when I played. Regular Type As were pushed only for the first week or so. After that it was time to consolidate on a limited selection of upper-level Type As, particularly the "big 3" of MT, Loft, NC and mixing of Type Bs depending on player level, after the "little 3" of Laundromat, Ice Cream Shop, and Italian Restaurant that is (plus Techno Club and/or Empire Theater if one had them). Once the player is this far in, the time cost of smaller Type As isn't worth it, and the player should be far enough along to afford Type Bs with better base revenue. In my farewell post I outlined a way to programmatically filter the spreadsheet(s), with Excel 2010 at least, to compare Type B to Type A by $/hr gain vs. ROI.

P.S. Beach Nightclub is 8x7 and it is an underrated building.

G Wiz
05-03-2012, 11:29 PM
That beach nightclub might be the last thing I build

emcee
05-03-2012, 11:45 PM
Nice thread. I agree with all of your points with reservation on your recommendation regarding two level 3 upscale club build prior to a night club. They are pretty much a wash based on tycoon output of 82% relative to 1 nightclub ($13154.17x2 /$32,083.33) and total build times of each (114 hours for two level 3 uc and 144 hours for nc or about 79%). Of course this is based on 4 collections/day on nc vs 1 for UC. Hence two level 3 uc will outperform a nc. This is the route to go if you've already have a uc in your hood. However, if you don't I feel strongly that nc is the only option even with the above analysis. The reason being is that a level 2 nc is a big game changer. It blows all other buildings out of the water and even outperforms level 185 casino.

At level 58 with all income buildings except for magic playhouse and flower shops and just 2 gold buildings (basketball courts) I'm actually in a worst financial position than my level 8 account. Buying all available type B buildings and hood expansions has come at a cost; that is, delaying nc build. I'm not much into ROI and calculations but have just relied on Tramp's type A and B information. If you concentrate on type A upgrades with emphasis on the big 3 (MT, lofts and nc) with laundromats, italian restaurants and souvenir store also ice cream with tapjoy acting as filler saving up for the big 3 upgrades you should be in a better financial position then someone going for uc race. UC race in my opinion will necessitate unnecessary expensive hood expansion and the possible sale of type A buildings to make room for type B. Also, as you progress further up the mid tier levels there are bigger whales and more seasoned rivals which can negate some of your gains having to factor banking and defense building purchase.

If you are already at level 70+ strategies will be adjusted based on whether you have uc or not and of course access to higher better payout gold buildings like pirate tavern and gents club.

At the end of the day if you can build a nc in under 30 days (more like under 50) at whatever level, even if you have uc in your hood it is a no brainer in my opinion. Level 2 nc is your key to economic nirvana.

Burn
05-04-2012, 07:36 AM
Good read. A practical guide to what to buy and when. So I'll start thinking about upgrading those Upscales now then.

And you've even got me rethinking about Nightclubs and maybe even Pirates :/

Nicholost
05-04-2012, 08:21 AM
That was an excellent read. You really threw a wrench in my NC savings plan that I finally committed to a few days ago. Now I'm looking over at my two level 1 UCs with renewed interest. Taking both of those to level 3 will cost me $35.7 million vs. $40 million, will take only 90 hrs vs. 144 hrs, and will produce incrementally; that is, one will continue to produce while the other is being upgraded. Yep, I'm going UCs to level 3 first, first NC second, NC to level 2 third, then building a second NC. I'll upgrade my Beach NCs to level 3 if I have fluff cash. While saving, I will continue to concentrate on low level producers with cheap upgrades costs and long upgrade times. Suddenly, it all becomes crystal clear. Thank you, MajorOffensive. :)

Also, bonus points for using "F your mother" in context in a post about economy. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/nicklepics/nothing%20of%20use/Emoticons/lol.gif

kaz
05-04-2012, 09:14 AM
Excellent read. Thanks for the info. I'm going to focus on the UC and upgrade them to level 3.

But I still didn't fully convinced about the NC issue, so Iíll be glad to hear your opinions.
In my daily schedule, the 24/48/12 hourís cycle system is really comfortable for me (one at my lunch break and the other after work).
The problem is that I'm not sure I can collect the NC output more than once, should I still build it?
I really hate it when I feel like someoneís ATM, plus once in a while Iím robbing other guys NCís. So, what do you think?

G Wiz
05-04-2012, 10:06 AM
So basically I should have upgraded my UC's before my NC then? Considering it has been done already, is it still a good thing to get em to level 3?

Burn
05-04-2012, 10:10 AM
@kaz Problem with buying a NC and allowing it to be robbed is not just a financial issue, there is the matter of brinkmanship.

If you are fighting/robbing some dude, and he is regularly robbing your unattended NC, you are going to have a bloody hard time convincing him (and yourself) that he isn't winning the battle.

So that competitive part of me still says "No Nightclubs. No Pirates. 12/24/48 only".

kaz
05-04-2012, 10:22 AM
Thank Burn.
I always knew I won't build a NC, but when I read these kind of threads it's always making me re-think the situation.

Jazz
05-04-2012, 12:28 PM
I plan to have a Nightclub below level 100. At what income/hr would you recommend starting to save while doing cheap, long upgrades (Italian Restaurants, House)? I'm almost 70k/hr now. Upscale's at 1. Loft's at 2 and 3. MT's at 5.

Any tips?

MajorOffensive
05-07-2012, 09:14 PM
Hello,

I pushed Nightclubs pretty hard. I think duder was the other primary proponent. There were others, like plux, but they weren't posting when I was most active. I agree I didn't go far enough in analysis. I had a 3rd revision to the plan in mind but lost interest in the game before writing it, though I did present an outline in my farewell post. The condensed version is that gold-equivalent buildings are worth mixing and matching but regular Type Bs don't come into play until the Internet Company and only in limited fashion. Regular Type Bs upgrades decay rapidly in value while gold-equivalents hang in. High level gold buildings are also very well worth it and are quite underrated from what I saw in others' hoods when I played. Regular Type As were pushed only for the first week or so. After that it was time to consolidate on a limited selection of upper-level Type As, particularly the "big 3" of MT, Loft, NC and mixing of Type Bs depending on player level, after the "little 3" of Laundromat, Ice Cream Shop, and Italian Restaurant that is (plus Techno Club and/or Empire Theater if one had them). Once the player is this far in, the time cost of smaller Type As isn't worth it, and the player should be far enough along to afford Type Bs with better base revenue. In my farewell post I outlined a way to programmatically filter the spreadsheet(s), with Excel 2010 at least, to compare Type B to Type A by $/hr gain vs. ROI.

P.S. Beach Nightclub is 8x7 and it is an underrated building.

Yeah, well, how's your economic growth doing now that you've quit? :p

The bolded line in particular is what I was getting at. Upgrade priority should be based on a time-cost formula. However, I believe lower levels are worth keeping around for quite a while, on the assumption a player will play very long-term, say the better part of a year or more. Otherwise they may not be worth the space that could be used just to build something else for the lols.

The formula should have these components:

S = sum of the incomes of all buildings per day
I = income gain of upgrade in question per day
U = time cost of upgrade
Lost-income *only for level 2+ upgrades; zero for new buildings* = (current building income per day)*U
Savings-time = (cost of upgrade+Lost-income)/(S) *adding the Lost-income here rolls the time-cost during the upgrade forward to before it ever occurs; this is optional, but seems appropriate considering saving starts when your building or upgrading functions are engaged*

Time-cost = (I)/(U+Savings-time)

This formula is the reverse of RoI. Instead of calculating how quickly an upgrade pays itself off, you see how quickly you can afford to build something; it accounts for your entire system's resources, not just the gain of one. Generally, as you go up the list ROI gradually decreases, depending on your actual collection frequency. But the Time-cost changes in interesting ways depending on how frequently you collect certain kinds of buildings and how much your income grows. What ends up happening is a graduation to larger upgrades per unit time invested when it makes sense according to your income.

For the record: I'm quite fond of the Beach Nightclub. Each gives me about $100K per day at level 3.



Nice thread. I agree with all of your points with reservation on your recommendation regarding two level 3 upscale club build prior to a night club. They are pretty much a wash based on tycoon output of 82% relative to 1 nightclub ($13154.17x2 /$32,083.33) and total build times of each (114 hours for two level 3 uc and 144 hours for nc or about 79%). Of course this is based on 4 collections/day on nc vs 1 for UC. Hence two level 3 uc will outperform a nc. This is the route to go if you've already have a uc in your hood. However, if you don't I feel strongly that nc is the only option even with the above analysis. The reason being is that a level 2 nc is a big game changer. It blows all other buildings out of the water and even outperforms level 185 casino.

At level 58 with all income buildings except for magic playhouse and flower shops and just 2 gold buildings (basketball courts) I'm actually in a worst financial position than my level 8 account. Buying all available type B buildings and hood expansions has come at a cost; that is, delaying nc build. I'm not much into ROI and calculations but have just relied on Tramp's type A and B information. If you concentrate on type A upgrades with emphasis on the big 3 (MT, lofts and nc) with laundromats, italian restaurants and souvenir store also ice cream with tapjoy acting as filler saving up for the big 3 upgrades you should be in a better financial position then someone going for uc race. UC race in my opinion will necessitate unnecessary expensive hood expansion and the possible sale of type A buildings to make room for type B. Also, as you progress further up the mid tier levels there are bigger whales and more seasoned rivals which can negate some of your gains having to factor banking and defense building purchase.

If you are already at level 70+ strategies will be adjusted based on whether you have uc or not and of course access to higher better payout gold buildings like pirate tavern and gents club.

At the end of the day if you can build a nc in under 30 days (more like under 50) at whatever level, even if you have uc in your hood it is a no brainer in my opinion. Level 2 nc is your key to economic nirvana.
I don't assume people will collect the Nightclub perfectly. I know I can't. That is why I qualified my observations about the Nightclub as an end-game building.

I recall stating that I don't recommend investing in all B buildings. I would like to have them eventually, but having the Big A's is priority number 1. Once you are doing the Movie Theatre and Loft, you need to prioritize the more effective buildings for your collection cycle. That is why I mentioned the "gold equivalent" B buildings that have quick upgrade times. Their quick upgrade times make for effective investments. Also why I mentioned specifically what I like to invest in after the Loft. I bought nearly everything before that (that was not gold, of course), and I still only had to spend $5M to upgrade enough to fit two Nightclubs and six other buildings. So space isn't too big an issue unless you buy lots of crappy low-level gold buildings or just keep buying them all after you have Lofts. I will again get to why expanding quite a bit can be good, though.

Obviously the Upscale Club is for those at or around 70+. If you aren't and are considering a Nightclub, good for you! MT to level 8 and Lofts to level 6 with a smattering of other stuff is a great place to start saving. Like I said, a lot depends on your play style. The slower levelers obviously benefit from saving longer for a Nightclub than wasting money on other expensive upgrades to lower-level buildings. But this may be reflected with the formula by only analyzing buildings actually available at your level.
It may not be obvious, but over time the buildings that right now cost you less time for relatively large income increase will actually save you time when you are building and upgrading your Nightclubs.

How can this be? The Upscale Club, for instance, builds and upgrades pretty quickly. This helps keep time cost low. And they are not continual investments. You invest, say, 16 days saving for them, and as you build them, they bring you increases in income. While you save more for the next upgrade. Otherwise, you are sitting on a slowly accumulating $40M. It brings you no new money for the 17 days or so you are saving (not to mention building) your first Nightclub.

Now, you may think you have broken even, but now your Nightclub has the even more lucrative Level 2 available. Score! But if you had taken the time to invest in the Upscale Club piecemeal, Level 2 might have taken just as long to finish saving for as Level 1 did. Not only that, but because you could get roughly the same income in action that much sooner, it shaves time off your Level 1 build. And then your Level 2 upgrade. And then the next Nightclub Level 1. And then Level 2. Over a few upgrades, the investment pays itself off by shaving off days from each one. Your money invested now is making even more money instead of stagnating. Your time now is saving you time in the future. Your achievement is in not only making more money now, but giving your most lucrative building a boost to its most lucrative upgrade.

Oh, and as I mentioned, I don't like selling my lower level buildings. Mostly because I don't have to. They contribute enough over time that I don't mind the occasional expansion to make more room. I weigh the gain of new B Buildings against the cost of expansion. Crematorium and Upscale Club, plus room to build my Nightclubs were worth the $5M expansion. I even packed in a couple of Comedy Clubs. By the time I need to expand again, the cost will be two or three days each. Time investment: the longer you own it, the more it makes. If you plan to play for many months to come like I do, it all pays back and then some in the end.


Good read. A practical guide to what to buy and when. So I'll start thinking about upgrading those Upscales now then.

And you've even got me rethinking about Nightclubs and maybe even Pirates :/

Collecting at least two full times is very much worth it. Collecting a robbed Nightclub in the morning is icing on the cake; oh, and someone licked it before you could take a bite.
Pirate Taverns are the best income per gold spent at level 10. Provided you can collect 8 hour buildings very regularly. If not, Gentlemen's Club is a close second and worth waiting for instead. It's quite a decision for someone like myself who only spends Tapjoy gold.


That was an excellent read. You really threw a wrench in my NC savings plan that I finally committed to a few days ago. Now I'm looking over at my two level 1 UCs with renewed interest. Taking both of those to level 3 will cost me $35.7 million vs. $40 million, will take only 90 hrs vs. 144 hrs, and will produce incrementally; that is, one will continue to produce while the other is being upgraded. Yep, I'm going UCs to level 3 first, first NC second, NC to level 2 third, then building a second NC. I'll upgrade my Beach NCs to level 3 if I have fluff cash. While saving, I will continue to concentrate on low level producers with cheap upgrades costs and long upgrade times. Suddenly, it all becomes crystal clear. Thank you, MajorOffensive. :)

Also, bonus points for using "F your mother" in context in a post about economy. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/nicklepics/nothing%20of%20use/Emoticons/lol.gif

Glad you found it helpful. I will say that arbitrarily picking something cheap to upgrade is a lazy habit of mine. I don't really bother calculating anything for buildings under the Loft. After you have the Nightclubs to level 2, then it's balancing picking good high level B building investments to support their upgrades against buying equips and leveling too quickly.


Excellent read. Thanks for the info. I'm going to focus on the UC and upgrade them to level 3.

But I still didn't fully convinced about the NC issue, so Iíll be glad to hear your opinions.
In my daily schedule, the 24/48/12 hourís cycle system is really comfortable for me (one at my lunch break and the other after work).
The problem is that I'm not sure I can collect the NC output more than once, should I still build it?
I really hate it when I feel like someoneís ATM, plus once in a while Iím robbing other guys NCís. So, what do you think?
If you collect 12 hours twice, you can collect twice. Which may mean 1.2 times if it is robbed both times. It becomes much less valuable in those circumstances, which is why I advocate basing your calculation on your income per day from the building. Even 60% of a collection can be a lot for a Nightclub, but you may gain more from other buildings. Just run the numbers.


So basically I should have upgraded my UC's before my NC then? Considering it has been done already, is it still a good thing to get em to level 3?
Not necessarily. If the UC's were available, then it would have helped get two of them built and upgraded. If you have one Level 1 Nightclub, you will still see benefit, but it may be better to focus on Level 2, considering it triples the income for a 67% cost increase. The Level 3 upgrade for UC's is a bit of a stretch, but because it helps get Nightclubs to Level 2 faster, making that particular upgrade at that time does end up working out. If NC Level 2 is already available, though, this may not be the case until later NC upgrades.


I plan to have a Nightclub below level 100. At what income/hr would you recommend starting to save while doing cheap, long upgrades (Italian Restaurants, House)? I'm almost 70k/hr now. Upscale's at 1. Loft's at 2 and 3. MT's at 5.

Any tips?

I included a formula that may help as a guideline. Generally I would recommend MT's to 8, Lofts to 6, and UC's to 3. Not in that order necessarily. After that, your time is probably better spent saving for the build. Crematoria, with their long build times, are nice filler upgrades that allow you to save more than you spend if you already have a decent daily income. Just remember than Nightclub Level 2 is worth more than a second Level 1.

MaddSkillz
05-08-2012, 12:12 AM
This post encouraged me to Buy the UC(second one coming soon). I just joined the 100k club!!!! It's been creeping up for a while and it's finally here, feel like I need a smoke. Lol

One more thing to ask...for those who won the Havoc Minigun in this event, wouldn't it be more benificl to go the UC route with the 30% upgrade savings? I hate math and don't know how the numbers would work out. Could one of you mathematicians could help with that part?

MaddSkillz
05-08-2012, 07:40 AM
I wonder. Hmm

jmeijer
05-08-2012, 08:17 AM
This gave me another new look on economy side. My first NC is building now and will be done in 70hrs. I have 2 L1 RC's, 2 L1 PT's, 2 L1 UC's, 2 L5 lofts and 2 L7 MT's. Income/hr is 193,000 right now. My next move is saving for NC L2 and after that, I will upgrade my UC's to lvl 3.

Thanks for the post!

itzkakarot
05-12-2012, 01:18 PM
Thanks for the detailed post, MajorOffensive. Essentially what you describe here was the primary purpose I created my Hood Planner sheet. Once it's setup, all you need to do is filter the "In Hood?" Column on "Next Purch." and "Next Upg.", Sort Descending on either of the "Gain / Day / Upgrade Hr" columns, then just work your way down the list, updating your building levels on the "My Hood" tab as you go.

Not sure I yet agree with your assessment about NCs. While yes upgrading B buildings gives you more income to save for NCs, the upgrades quickly become time-inefficient. I'm still doing analysis though.

I'm currently working on a new tab the Hood Planner sheet that lets folks plan out building schedules based on the Money Buildings tab and their current income. Once it's done it will essentially allow you to answer the question "What are my next X upgrades" instead of just "What should I upgrade next" which the current sheet answers.

I'll post it when it's ready.

ShawnBB
05-12-2012, 02:08 PM
Oh yeah! Econ party here. LoL
love seeing every Econ pros pop out and do massive posting non stop.

So majoyoffensive what do you think the ratio of IpH/ROI for determining each building?
I've been follow this ratio a while and it is working well so far.
Now I'm really confused on starting NC plan or not...

duder
12-12-2012, 08:47 AM
Nice post.

Out of curiosity, why not wait until lv 3 nightclub before starting 2nd nightclub. I've been trying to get caught up on econ discussion, and I've seen a couple posts encouraging approach of starting the second nightclub when the first is at lv 2. Is this where the goal to play within your lifetime starts to interfere with the mentality that you gotta get all your buildings upgraded to level 10?

For some reason I seem to recall that with the exception of the bball court and the gingerbread house, it's a more efficient use of cash to go to level 3 on the first A type building before starting the second (bb and ginger it's more efficient to go level 2 then start the second building). Is that no longer the case?

Bala82
12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
Well i have 32 million saved up but this made me realise i could do some upgrade

For 30 million i could

MT ( Level 7 Upgrade) 3,036,874
Church ( Level 2 upgrade) 2,505,000
Upscale (Level 2 upgrade 6,680,000
Upscale (Level 2 upgrade) 6,680,000
Loft (Level 5 upgrade) 5,911,252
Loft 5,911,252

Total cost 30,724,378

Why should i be in hurry to get nightclub ? I can only build 1 because i don't want to do another expansion.

duder
12-12-2012, 11:04 AM
@WLR
Yikes, sorry about bringing this thread around - any thoughts on a good thread to follow for econ discussion?

@bala
Sounds like you may have some space issues...

Taking space out of the equation (I know, I know, you can't take space out of the equation), I'd probably go the following before a lv 1 NC.
Lofts to lv 5
MT to lv 7
Church to lv 3

But after the NC came in, I'd get it to lv 3 before touching the others or building a second one.

Taking space into consideration, NC is the best income/square lv 10 building in the game. It's almost twice as good as the runner up (palm hotel) meaning that being on a 6 hour clock, if you can collect from it without getting robbed just twice a day, you're just about even with perfect palm hotel collection.

Bala82
12-12-2012, 11:08 AM
Thanks Duder for your suggestion i was going church to 3 after the nightclub.

It's not really space issues is that i don't want get rid of wholesale warehouse as i become fond of it.

My main aim is to get all Mafia building to 10.

mxz
12-12-2012, 11:27 AM
Duder, see the thread in my sig. You'll save time by upgrading the NC to 2 then working your second one to 2 before taking the first to 3. Another poster came in with different analysis (build two then upgrade) but his IPH assumption was very low ($65/70k, I believe).

When the Haunted Mansion came out, with its $0 upgrades, I revisited the common assumption that with an infinite IPH you should take the first A-type building to L10 first, and found its a flawed assumption. What I found was for A type buildings the best upgrade path is first one to L2, second to L2, then staggered upgrades until they're both level 8 then take one all the way to L10 (although those last 2 upgrades are basically a push).

@Bala the reason is because of the ridiculous upgrade path. Read OPs analysis - it still stands.

Also, here's a look at my daily income sources:
NC4 and NC5: $16.8M / day (3 collections) - 61% of daily income
2x Gentleman's L2: $1.6M / day - 6% of daily income
2x Loft7: $1.5M - 5% of daily income
2x Hotel2: $1.25M - 5% of daily income
2x PT2: $1.1M - 4% of daily income
2x Office1: $850k - 3% of daily income
Condos, Upscale, HM, MT, and Credit Agencies all make up 2% or less apiece. Dominicans and Flower Shops round out the only ones with a single percent.

So the reason to invest in NCs is because everything else that isn't a Strip Club, Loft or Hotel becomes a decoration.

Bala82
12-12-2012, 11:39 AM
I have actually read your analysis but the simple fact is that it isn't easy to save for 66 Million for level 2 upgrade . My Income is in my signature but i seen a few rivals who upgraded MT and Loft to 8 and as a result have nightclub at 3. It's my understanding that faster i upgrade my MT and Loft easier it will be upgrade my Nightclub ?.

mxz
12-12-2012, 11:55 AM
I have actually read your analysis but the simple fact is that it isn't easy to save for 66 Million for level 2 upgrade . My Income is in my signature but i seen a few rivals who upgraded MT and Loft to 8 and as a result have nightclub at 3. It's my understanding that faster i upgrade my MT and Loft easier it will be upgrade my Nightclub ?.Yes...and no. It will make the initial save easier, but at $120k you're better off focusing on the NC2 upgrade (almost exclusively) because you'll end up making more money in a fairly short period of time (call it catch-up income). You can calculate your break-even points to see for yourself.

If you have HMs, upgrade those in the mean time, but don't commit any more than maybe $1M to any upgrade unless it takes almost a week (and thus prevents you from spending more money). MTs should definitely not be taken past 7 and Lofts past 7 are kind of a waste, too. If you have your MT at 7 and Lofts at 5 you're in the right position to button up and save for the NC. Once that save is over everything else is a piece of cake. If I remember correctly, after I had my NC2 and NC3 the longest save (for NC3) was only 2-3 weeks.

Ever since I've had two NC3s I average a NC upgrade every 12 days. That includes upgrades to Strip Clubs, PTs, Hotels, and HMs.

Right now my next upgrade (NC5) is only 11 days from scratch and that's a $311M upgrade, to put it in perspective. The key is to get the snowball rolling.

Bala82
12-12-2012, 12:07 PM
Thanks MXZ for the advice. :)

Right now my Loft are at 4 but planning to bring 5 soon.
MT is at 7 but other one at 6

Nicky the Nose
12-12-2012, 12:13 PM
I followed MXZ's info on my NC's and it has been a real game changer. I'm only lv 14 so I had to tweak a few building limits but overall I followed his guide. In little over 1 month I have a Lv 2 NC and the 2nd NC is building. My IPH has gone from 130k to 310k since Halloween. Thanks for your analysis MXZ

skippy
12-13-2012, 09:31 AM
finally some help for me. the uc makes more sense now. i had no idea what to do next. i have

lofts @6
mt's @6
dom's @6
ww's @5

i level slow and use tapjoy. i'll get uc's to 3 . by the time i get 300 mafia i'll have plenty of money for the nc's. i have no idea what to buy next. prolly a hotel. thanks for the help.

Bala82
12-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Hey skippy before you purchase anything else you should do an inventory management of your cash items and see whether you have equip your mafia with best cash & respect ( Gun,melee and armour) . I see a lot players who focus so much on building economy and than get mad at me for robbing them 800K from their hood.

Do you have a church ? it's a gold building it's make good money once upgraded.

I really wouldn't upgrade WW any further ( you could replace them with nightclub) that way you don't find space for it.

skippy
12-13-2012, 11:37 AM
i spend respect as fast as i can and use it as my gauge to add more mafia. right now i have

22 sawn off shotguns
16 rpg
30 chain whips
30 exceleron

as soon as i add one of those and my stats dont go up i add mafia (120). i have 220 in tapjoy and have thought about using it for pirate taverns, but am waiting to see what christmas bldg is. i have cheap gold bldgs. ice cream, smoke shop, chiky and waffles. any suggestions on something to add ? i have 48 mil today. it's about time a good thread comes along to help. tks.

Bala82
12-13-2012, 11:58 AM
You need a lot more than you have - You need layer in some cash armour

If you have 120 Mafia - I would have at least 60 Riot shield as well 60 Blast Shield , Since you don't have enough mafia for blast guard helmet ? You really at least 40 of each respect weapons you listed.

I repeat myself again do you have church ?
Do you have a condo?

skippy
12-13-2012, 12:09 PM
no church. no condo. the loft upgrades seem better than a condo. is a church better than a pirate tavern? i'll buy the shields now. i attack for respect points as much as i can. i'll get to 40 of each as fast as i can. i do have 28 ballistic vests,49 bomb squad suits,13 flex armor, and 28 full combat gear and 17 enforcer jackets. dio i still need blast shields and roit shields?? i can rob more than most at my level and only a few attack me regularly with success. the underboss house is the highest lvl bldg i have bought. i have the 100 mafia for the lofts tho. not even russian or french restaraunts yet.

Bala82
12-13-2012, 12:44 PM
is a church better than a pirate tavern?

The problem with a pirate tavern is that it's 8 hour building and good target for robbers. Church is a 24 hour building which mean you can collect it every time. Most would suggest going rock cafe (http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Rock_Caf%C3%A9)

Church - http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Church
pirate tavern - http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate_Tavern


dio i still need blast shields and roit shields??

Assuming eventually you will be adding more mafia you need pre-plan what you need for the future.

skippy
12-13-2012, 01:35 PM
i sit in front of a computer all day at work and don't sleep much. i collect my 3 hour bldgs 6 times min per day. 8 hour and 6 hour are not really a problem. i will get a church before a tavern now tho. it will take me a long time to get the 300 mafia the way i am creeping, but i'd rather have the well equipped smaller mafia. i'm always on the - http://crimecityios.wikia.com/wiki/ site. i'm glad the work was already done for me. thank you bala for all of your help. i have more help today than all of the others put together.

mxz
12-13-2012, 01:57 PM
Search "crime city mafia codes" on your favorite search engine. You don't need any more buildings...build the NC.

Stip Clubs are the only long term economy enhancing gold building. HMs, if you picked them up, are great tactically for box openings for bankers. And they look cool....which is good because they're just decorations for no-bankers with decent economies.

skippy
12-13-2012, 02:12 PM
i guess i'll start adding mafia for the nc's. i think i'd equip them pretty good. cripes i seem to have the endless supply of viking blades and enhanced bikes. thanks.

Nicky the Nose
12-13-2012, 02:20 PM
Skippy once you start the 2nd NC you can lower your mafia back down to a more comfortable level, your NC's will stay even if you get rid of all mafia

Chips
12-13-2012, 02:46 PM
You need a lot more than you have - You need layer in some cash armour

If you have 120 Mafia - I would have at least 60 Riot shield as well 60 Blast Shield , Since you don't have enough mafia for blast guard helmet ? You really at least 40 of each respect weapons you listed.

This is kinda random stuff here Bala. Buy 1 armor for each mafia? He has to have scratcher and event items that are stronger, no way he will use all of the cash armor. Even the last few will contribute little.

Skippy, I would lay off the sawn off shotties as well. Everyone is different, see what each of the RP items do to your stats and buy accordingly. Go NC's, as for PT versus Church, nobody beats the ris, well except in this case, PT's do.

Bala82
12-14-2012, 12:11 AM
Chips you are right but i read one best of best guide about layering your equipment with everything .

Scratcher don't always give you weapons on few occasion i get cash and respect.

skippy
12-14-2012, 06:46 AM
i got the shotties early in the game. the exceleros give me the best boost right now. i have
1218 weapons
623 armors
319 vehicles

for 120 mafia

i think they are equipped pretty good. i think i will do the add mafia and dump some back. i did that to get my lofts. it's been months since i have had good advice that wasn't posted in 2011.

Bala82
12-14-2012, 07:31 AM
Skippy i am on here practically everyday so any time you need advice just ask ?

Look at my signature to see my stats. I will update them now

skippy
12-14-2012, 08:39 AM
thanks man. i really appreciate it. i am also here lurking everyday.