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View Full Version : How are people productive in pop/raid?



Intrance
09-11-2012, 07:55 AM
Ive been hearing people making their money thru raiding but I just don't see it. I go thru tons of kingdoms and rarely find anything worth raiding. And if I actually do find anything casualty rate is just too high. I'm lv 90 with 65k att and still loose units to 20k def. Granted I don't have my water temple upgraded but I don't see that making enough difference. 1 lost hydra can ruin most of my profit from raiding not to mention time wasted and worthless exp. So how are people making money?

RandomUser
09-11-2012, 08:15 AM
Like you, I find high casualty rates wipe out otherwise lucrative raiding runs. My power offensive weapon is an army of basilisks complemented with enough imps to keep my high priests from joining the fight. I don't mind losing 2-3 imps per attack if I'm going after a level 2 lender or a manor, but there are a good number of raids where I lose net worth. Sometimes it's worth it if I'm pushing for an upgrade and will be going over vault, so I look at it like I do when I sell buildings to upgrade. I'm converting units to gold at a premium, but it still may be worth it to get my building built without someone looting my unvaulted cash.

Durwood
09-11-2012, 08:28 AM
I agree. There is nothing lucrative about raiding sans the fact you can gain honor pts.
Also, the casualty ratings are a joke. High Priest and Flaming Treb/Cats should be listed as VERY HIGH. Manticores, too.

In addition, I can go through probably 50 Kingdom's before I find anything to raid. If I try to fulfill the Tournament quests, when I need to attack 185's or greater, my Rival List will have nothing but those with a 275 alliance or greater.
If I am on my last battle on a Tournament quest, I can guarantee that I will STRUGGLE to beat someone with a much lower across the board profile than mine.

It is SO predictable, that I almost don't even use the PVP portion anymore.

Great_wall2
09-11-2012, 08:47 AM
The most reliable way to generate money is to build your economy, particularly through Manors/Lenders/Silos. This method is always a constant especially if you are a player with high stats. If you combine this with the occasional PVP/ Raiding and PVE you can generate a lot of gold at a good rate. However the higher level you are, generally the less overvault players you will find so you will need to rely more heavily on your economy. Raiding will still be viable but it is a lot of luck. Basically the earlier and faster you can enhance your economy the better because it will become much harder at the higher levels where the whales / sharks inevitably lurk.

If you continue to PVP then you need to build up your meat shields ie: lower costing high attack higher casualty units like catapults / imps. This will lower your overall attack density but will decrease the chance of losing high costing units such as hydras. Knowing this you will lose more of your meat shields more frequently so you will have to pick your targets more carefully to ensure a profit at the end.

Intrance
09-11-2012, 09:11 AM
I agree. There is nothing lucrative about raiding sans the fact you can gain honor pts.

Maybe if there are honor units worth getting it'll be worth it lol. At this point my honor points are just banked. Cannons and werewolves are now outdated for me now....

Intrance
09-11-2012, 09:26 AM
If you continue to PVP then you need to build up your meat shields ie: lower costing high attack higher casualty units like catapults / imps. This will lower your overall attack density but will decrease the chance of losing high costing units such as hydras. Knowing this you will lose more of your meat shields more frequently so you will have to pick your targets more carefully to ensure a profit at the end.

I could be wrong but what I understood the casualty calculation is done by a percentage starting from highest att unit when u attack. So let's say I have 200 hydra with 72 att and 200 catapult with 54 att. Each hydra will roll for casualty based on casualty rate lets say .2%. If all hydra survive then catapult will roll next since lower att value let's say at 1% casualty. Since catapults are higher casualty rate it most likely will die but not before hydras survived the roll If any of the hydra dies then the rest will be rolled at a lower casualty percentage so less likely to loose another.
If this is true then even if I stack on higher casualty units wouldn't my hydra still get rolled first so it doesn't
matter? I can see this working on def units since u can get high priest to not enter battle at all when u attack. But isn't this strategy not work with protecting hydras?

Chups
09-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Just gotta keep looking. Just a few seconds ago, I found 2 level 10 silos on a player that is just 14K defense. Anything below 15K will not kill any of my units. And an hour before that, found a player with unvaulted gold. Must have gotten 25K gold out of him. I did lose a few units but adding it up, I still won.

bgood
09-11-2012, 10:50 AM
I find it worthwhile to convert units to cash to upgrade but also to get rid of early level units you purchased as they tend to have higher casualty rates. I only attack players with level 7 or higher silos, manors, level 2 l.enders and of course unvaulted cash. I replace basilek losses in between upgrades.

DragCro
09-11-2012, 10:57 AM
When i atack epick boss i atack with -1500 atack points that i have,why is that? So if my atack is 30000 on boss event is about 28500!

Guido69
09-11-2012, 11:05 AM
my daily income using raids is about 200k. I also loose many units, but the net income is still considerable

Funkey monkey
09-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Welcome to the forum DragCo. Boost buildings haven't helped with boss attack.

On topic, I use low cost imps as my main attack unit. My higher stats for my level comes from w/a, which I use as substitute indestructibles. I only raid level 10 silos. Raids seem to have fewer losses. I also prefer to attack with lower allies, seem to have fewer losses.

Hulagirl
09-11-2012, 12:08 PM
on an average day i make 200k on raiding as well. my raid number is over 12k. my attack density is decent at 157 and my main attack unit lost in raiding is the Siege Tower. one of the tricks is finding the sweet spots during the day and week when peoples' buildings are uncollected. they exist. sometimes i can hit a string of manors in an hour and it does not appear to be pure chance. and there are times when raiding is nearly worthless.

Danthorne
09-11-2012, 12:33 PM
I find it worthwhile to convert units to cash to upgrade but also to get rid of early level units you purchased as they tend to have higher casualty rates. I only attack players with level 7 or higher silos, manors, level 2 l.enders and of course unvaulted cash. I replace basilek losses in between upgrades.

How does one sell units back? On either of my accounts for iPhone or iPad , I have not seen that option.

Serboy
09-11-2012, 12:50 PM
How does one sell units back? On either of my accounts for iPhone or iPad , I have not seen that option. Unfortunately there isn't any option to sell units or equipments

Timbathia
09-11-2012, 02:03 PM
How does one sell units back? On either of my accounts for iPhone or iPad , I have not seen that option.

I think what he means is that when saving for big upgrades over the vault limits, you raid constantly to earn money while losing units (hence effectively trading or selling your units for cash to reduce time spent over the vault limit). For the most part, I only raid while over the vault limit. If I am not over it, it takes a large score to get me interested.

Joe Brown1
09-11-2012, 02:13 PM
I have an Attack of 58K at lvl 83 and regularly raid up to a def of 20/21K. My army is currently about 1/3 dragons and 2/3 siege towers and I occasionally will lose a siege tower but I probably add $100K - 200K a day to my income through raiding.

John Snow
09-11-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm getting close to reaching 13,000 successful raids and on a good day I can do over 350,000 in gold raiding and lose maybe 1 or 2 units. On a bad day I might lose 8 units. My experience has been that your relative ally count is more of a factor than your relative attack and defense stats.

Right now I'm Lv51 with 84 allies and 13.8k attack. If I raid someone with fewer allies than I have, I almost never lose units (the casualty rate definitely isn't zero, though). If I raid someone with 110 allies or more, I start to expect to see a unit loss now and again. CC Mark insists that att/def stats don't factor into the casualty rate but it sure seems like if I raid someone with a def over 10,000 with 110 or more allies, I'm much more likely to lose a unit than if my target had a def of 6,000 and 110 or more allies.

Tiki
09-11-2012, 05:28 PM
I'm getting close to reaching 13,000 successful raids and on a good day I can do over 350,000 in gold raiding and lose maybe 1 or 2 units. On a bad day I might lose 8 units. My experience has been that your relative ally count is more of a factor than your relative attack and defense stats.

Right now I'm Lv51 with 84 allies and 13.8k attack. If I raid someone with fewer allies than I have, I almost never lose units (the casualty rate definitely isn't zero, though). If I raid someone with 110 allies or more, I start to expect to see a unit loss now and again. CC Mark insists that att/def stats don't factor into the casualty rate but it sure seems like if I raid someone with a def over 10,000 with 110 or more allies, I'm much more likely to lose a unit than if my target had a def of 6,000 and 110 or more allies.

Greetings, pvp and raid is quite successful. I only lose units if I attack someone who has a defense within 5k of my attack. Then I have some cheaper units rated medium that I lose. The closer I am to their defense, say 2k, I may lose a cannon or basilisk.

Funkey monkey
09-11-2012, 06:09 PM
Tiki,
You're pretty humble, not bragging on your winnings. I haven't seen anyone with your raid percentages.

Do you have any strategic suggestions as far as Raid strategies? Do you look for specific buildings? Feed off the News? Raid during certain parts of the day? Go after certain ally bracket?

Tiki
09-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Tiki,
You're pretty humble, not bragging on your winnings. I haven't seen anyone with your raid percentages.

Do you have any strategic suggestions as far as Raid strategies? Do you look for specific buildings? Feed off the News? Raid during certain parts of the day? Go after certain ally bracket?

Definitely specific buildings as each building carries its own defense - silos have next to no "hidden" defense and you get very little xp, for me they have to be lev6 or higher. Good money, no loses, little xp. My dragons love them 😊. Similar situation with leather shops and playhouses, slightly higher defense but quite manageable. Manors, lenders and any "gem" building - quite high hidden defense.
I do have a time frame where it seems more profitable, but being a world wide game not sure if this would help. However I will share, but I hope everyone doesn't start raiding all at the same time as my dragons will starve - my best time frames are 4-6 am mountain time and 9-11 pm mountain time.
When it comes to allies, all I look at is whether all units have a weapon and armor, and the defense number. If my opponent's defense is close to my attack - I leave the manors, lenders etc alone and go for silos, taverns etc. if I am 10k higher or more, I take the top 4 buildings. I never clean out a kingdom.
Not sure this helps

John Snow
09-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Definitely specific buildings as each building carries its own defense - silos have next to no "hidden" defense and you get very little xp, for me they have to be lev6 or higher. Good money, no loses, little xp. My dragons love them ��. Similar situation with leather shops and playhouses, slightly higher defense but quite manageable. Manors, lenders and any "gem" building - quite high hidden defense.
I do have a time frame where it seems more profitable, but being a world wide game not sure if this would help. However I will share, but I hope everyone doesn't start raiding all at the same time as my dragons will starve - my best time frames are 4-6 am mountain time and 9-11 pm mountain time.
When it comes to allies, all I look at is whether all units have a weapon and armor, and the defense number. If my opponent's defense is close to my attack - I leave the manors, lenders etc alone and go for silos, taverns etc. if I am 10k higher or more, I take the top 4 buildings. I never clean out a kingdom.
Not sure this helps

Interesting that you have a different unit loss pattern than what I'm seeing. At my level, I don't see as many manors or lenders so I'm not running into the "hidden" defense as much. In my bracket I see people with about 30 fewer allies than me up to about 45 more allies than me. Hitting people with >40 allies than me seems to be where I'll see more unit losses.

Sixmoons
09-12-2012, 01:54 AM
Im sure its only a minority of players who benefit from raids, usually the high levels with uber stats. Otherwise it doesnt take long before newer players figure out raiding is a waste of time. PvP is usually a big drawcard in social games, so its disappointing that raiding in KA is such a non event. Lower the casuality rate mechanic and I guarrantee player activity will increase dramatically.

YLL
09-12-2012, 02:03 AM
Interesting that you have a different unit loss pattern than what I'm seeing. At my level, I don't see as many manors or lenders so I'm not running into the "hidden" defense as much. In my bracket I see people with about 30 fewer allies than me up to about 45 more allies than me. Hitting people with >40 allies than me seems to be where I'll see more unit losses.

Despite our similar stats and levels, my experience actually much more closely reflects Tiki's (albeit I've never noticed any impact from hidden building defences). For me, the major factor appears to be the difference in my stats versus than of my victi... errr... rival. I rarely lose units if the gap is large, and my unit loss rate has been dropping dramatically as I transitioned first to hydras and now to dragons.

Bea
09-12-2012, 02:57 AM
Yes, agree with Tiki and YL. Raiding has been profitable for me, some days are slower than others. Losing units, I seem to lose them in little clusters, so I might lose a few units in a couple of raids, but then I'll go a dozen raids without a loss. Easy to find weak rivals, at L94 I still see rivals with <10k stats.

bgood
09-12-2012, 11:22 AM
How does one sell units back? On either of my accounts for iPhone or iPad , I have not seen that option.

What i meant is throughout the game people acquire more units then they can use at a given time, Raiding it allows me to lose the units that i acquired at earlier levels that are now not used and with only losing the incremental difference between that unit lost and the one it replaces which often can be minimal. It allows me to in essence get cash back in exchange for losing a unit that I had no intention of using in the long run. Anytime I lose a high end item I will replace, I dont replace the units that are now junk to me in the big picture

John Snow
09-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Many of you will remember this thread:


I lost 2 berserkers and a giant worm in 1 raid with a player who had 1672 defense to my 2992 attack. they had one boost building with no upgrade...


Comparative attack and defense have no impact on casualties in any of our games. You could have a billion attack and they have 1 defense and you'd still have the same casualty rate.

Just because your glass cannons do a ton of damage, doesn't mean they're invincible.


Seriously!!!

So I could attack someone with 50% less D to my A and lose just as much as if I was attacking someone with just 5% difference???


Yeah, that's exactly right.

If they haven't changed the unit loss algorithm in the past several months then losses aren't dependent on the att/def differential. There aren't "strong against" units like in MW to factor in. Skill points obviously do play a role but there's no way to measure that.

My observation has been ally count being the primary factor and that may be because I'm specifically looking for it. If I see someone with 12k defense and 125 allies I'm a little more leery around this person than someone else with 12k defense and just 90 allies.

Talkazar
09-12-2012, 01:06 PM
I'd refine your theory slightly, and suggest its the number of units they bring to battle. There are a couple of people with 500 allies who don't have meaningful armies (they bring 100 or less units to battle). I can cheerily attack them for as many times as I wish for no combat losses. But unless you attack someone who is very weak, the number of units they bring will be 3 their ally count, thus you see it as number of allies.

Unit quality does also factor in somehow. Sending 1500 footmen doesn't work as well as just 'number of units' suggests.

Tiki
09-12-2012, 01:32 PM
I'd refine your theory slightly, and suggest its the number of units they bring to battle. There are a couple of people with 500 allies who don't have meaningful armies (they bring 100 or less units to battle). I can cheerily attack them for as many times as I wish for no combat losses. But unless you attack someone who is very weak, the number of units they bring will be 3 their ally count, thus you see it as number of allies.

Unit quality does also factor in somehow. Sending 1500 footmen doesn't work as well as just 'number of units' suggests.

I agree, that is why I look at weapons and armor. They may be sending in the units, but I have seen some armies where 1/3 do not have weapons and/or armor - sometimes both.

John Snow
09-12-2012, 02:40 PM
I'd refine your theory slightly, and suggest its the number of units they bring to battle. There are a couple of people with 500 allies who don't have meaningful armies (they bring 100 or less units to battle). I can cheerily attack them for as many times as I wish for no combat losses. But unless you attack someone who is very weak, the number of units they bring will be 3 their ally count, thus you see it as number of allies.

Unit quality does also factor in somehow. Sending 1500 footmen doesn't work as well as just 'number of units' suggests.

You're right. That's more descriptive of the dynamic I was trying to describe. At my middle of the road ally count, I don't know that I've seen anyone who can't field a complete army (3 units for each ally) even if it's just clerics to round out the bottom of ranks. I hadn't really looked at unit quality specifically except for its impact on def stats - over 10k def, I figure they're using HPs as their backbone, 6k def or less they're using zeppelins.

John Snow
09-12-2012, 02:42 PM
I agree, that is why I look at weapons and armor. They may be sending in the units, but I have seen some armies where 1/3 do not have weapons and/or armor - sometimes both.

That's so surprising at your level. I would have thought that if you got past L90, you had a good understanding of the game.

Tiki
09-12-2012, 05:06 PM
That's so surprising at your level. I would have thought that if you got past L90, you had a good understanding of the game.

Shhhh, don't tell them. . .

Danthorne
09-24-2012, 12:53 PM
I've been productive with raiding on my level 44 account, but have been getting raided on my lvl94 account by players with much lower scores. I lost a full manor income to someone with a 27,800 attack, while I have a 37,800 defense, plus the following defense bldgs protecting the manor:

Level 2 Corruption tower 120 defense
Level 4 magic circle 60 defense
2 level 2 cannon towers at 44 each.

How were they able to raid me? Is it useless to have these defense towers and arrange to have them protect building?

War Eagle
09-24-2012, 01:59 PM
For me... when it comes to unit casualties and pvp "production"... I've had to change my philosophy/attitude. I used to get mad every time I lost an expensive unit (like a 3,600 flaming catapult) for a raid or fight that only netted a few hundred gold. Now I just think of it like this. Since you can't sell back unused units... and they'll eventually be replace when others are unlocked (i.e. dragons)... I'm using raids and pvp now as a way to "sell off" my flaming catapults and other units to raise funds for my BD10 run. Sure.. in the short term I'm gradually losing a few stat points... but it's better than hoarding a bunch of mid-level units that won't be worth keeping in the near future...

Of course... once I get my dragon army in line I'll go back to being a little more selective... but that's a loooong way off.

Njwmrb
09-24-2012, 02:35 PM
This is why I never bought Basilisks or Hydras. I went from siege towers to dragons.

Tiki
09-24-2012, 05:37 PM
I've been productive with raiding on my level 44 account, but have been getting raided on my lvl94 account by players with much lower scores. I lost a full manor income to someone with a 27,800 attack, while I have a 37,800 defense, plus the following defense bldgs protecting the manor:

Level 2 Corruption tower 120 defense
Level 4 magic circle 60 defense
2 level 2 cannon towers at 44 each.

How were they able to raid me? Is it useless to have these defense towers and arrange to have them protect building?

Check their allies. Depending on units not being used they can add 30-40 allies in a heartbeat. Then they are higher than you. They attack, remove allies to look weaker, then they hope you attack back because then you are on the news and they can hit your kingdom whenever they want. Speak from experience - the recipient of this strategy, not the attacker.

Mervic
09-24-2012, 11:03 PM
Check their allies. Depending on units not being used they can add 30-40 allies in a heartbeat. Then they are higher than you. They attack, remove allies to look weaker, then they hope you attack back because then you are on the news and they can hit your kingdom whenever they want. Speak from experience - the recipient of this strategy, not the attacker.

Nice...thanks for the heads up. I wish you can view battle results after you have been attacked to see the battle in detail.