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View Full Version : Bonuses Maxed Out But Guild Info Says 22% - Bug?



warnpeace
03-06-2013, 08:57 PM
Hi Guys,

I have Building Speed maxed out but on my Guild Info screen it says I'm at 22%...

Did I miss something? Or this a bug?

Thanks.

SoccerStud
03-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Bonuses are multiplicative not additive

BadNews
03-06-2013, 09:38 PM
1-0.95^5=22%

Jean marc
03-07-2013, 12:31 AM
Nice calculation, but when i press the bonus button it say that i am buying 5%, nowhere does it say that i have to calculate to get to 14%, after i buy the 5%. This is called false advertising in my book. Our guild need more explanation on this. I did send a ticket to gree, but i only got the robot reply as usual.

kyljoy
03-07-2013, 03:16 AM
The description says "building upgrades are 5%" instead of building upgrade times are reduced by 5%.

If the bonuses are multiplicative then it should be (1.05)^5 = 27.63%

So you're arguing we should buy a bonus that increases our building time? I don't understand why some are additive and some are multiplicative (speaking more for MW, since we don't, to date, have attack or defense bonuses in KA).

domw001
03-07-2013, 03:30 AM
I think maybe the confusion is with button labels that don't change for the next upgrade.

Your guild's Info screen shows the true current bonus value.

This may help you http://www.b4ye.com/#!current-bonuses/c236o

collage
03-07-2013, 05:14 AM
Wish I had that bonus, things will really speed up a lot.

Nxy
03-07-2013, 05:20 AM
There still seems to be alot of gaps in the bonuses and how they work and the pricing no complete table is put together. I founded my guild and we only have 14% upgrade speed. I know stuff gets pricey thou. 300k for lvl 1 600k for lvl2 1.5mil for lvl 3 and 3.6mil for lvl 4. Kinda wish there was a tracker so i can find the free loaders in my guild and kick them and get some active players in there position. They just weight down the rest of the guildies that actually pay into the guild.

Shinazueli
03-07-2013, 09:55 AM
I'm lol'ing at the false advertising post. The upgrade says that your building upgrades are 5% Faster. You assumed that this meant 5% of the original time, incorrectly. In reality, it's 5% off the current time. Which is exactly the formula presented. Your times after one upgrade are exactly 95% of what they were right before you purchased the upgrade. I'll go ahead and apologize to Gree that you don't understand 7th grade math for you.

TL:DR Percentage based bonuses are almost always multiplicative, in every game ever made.

Jean marc
03-07-2013, 07:24 PM
Since, English is not my primary language, and that you so nicely explained the formulas. I am translating as i read or write. Read it now understand. And thank you for the nice remarks. And by the way try to get explanation from gree but it is hard to get answer. So i came here to get something. Don't know if i will ask question again.

Jean marc
03-07-2013, 07:26 PM
And thank you for the other members that did put an explanation, i do appreciate.

Jean marc
03-07-2013, 08:48 PM
This will serve me right, to come here and ask question for the members of the guild, did not think that I was going to get insulted on my schooling in the process. I pass the remark to all the members of the guild.
Since I am translating as I go, my primary language is French Canadian. I will say sorry for the spelling mistake or syntax now before someone else tell me I cannot write English or that I have a lack of education. My post was a bit harsh I agree in French it did not sound that harsh but it is hard to get answer from gree was told to come here because there is lots of a senior member that likes to help but as usual it is not all.
I did ask my daughter to help me with the formula (she went to English school I made sure of it since English is used everywhere) in French we do not use some of the sign that were post must be new math, but my daughter did explained it to me nicely. And once in a while she does take the time to explain some of the game to me. How nice of her.
From now on I will do what I did for the last year or more, I will read the post translate try to make some sense out of it, but will not ask question anymore

As for sending excuse to gree, they do not need any excuse, because every time the game crashed on me during quest or other event when they were near completion and could not complete them. Sent multiple tickets, the robot is well mannered I must say. They did not send any excuse to me so we are even now.

Thank You

Jean-Marc

Angel 2
03-07-2013, 10:03 PM
Jean Marc, don't be discouraged from asking questions, that is one of the reasons the forum exists...
I have asked some dumb questions in my time and have been called on them by forum participants in good spirit and that's the way I took their comments. Have a laugh, enjoy the game and the banter here.

sparckle
03-07-2013, 10:06 PM
Gree didn't describe the upgrade correctly. "5% faster upgrade time" and "upgrade time reduced by 5%" are completely different.

Take this for example. If you upgrade 100% faster, it means you do twice the amount of work in the same time thereby cutting upgrade time in half. Or in other words, "100% faster upgrade" would be equivalent to "50% reduced upgrade time".

"5% faster upgrade time" should be the same as "4.762% reduced upgrade time".

So if the mechanics were true to the description, then having the level 5 upgrade would grant:

1/(1.2763)^5 = 0.7462, or 25.38% reduced upgrade time.

But clearly Gree meant "5% reduced upgrade times", so that is a case of false advertising.

Jean marc
03-07-2013, 10:25 PM
Thank you to the both of you, now i do understand the mechanic of it, i really appreciate your answer, will bring this back to the guild for everyone to see, this is the first time that i play game, my son and daughter bought me an ipad and itouch, and i download all the gree game CC, MW, MQ and KA. I must say that i got hook on them Loll. I am a Canadian Air Force Vet, so i have lots of time on my hand. I did start a Faction in MW we ranked 196 in the last war. So i started one in KA as well.
Thank you again

ezinap
03-08-2013, 12:27 AM
Gree didn't describe the upgrade correctly. "5% faster upgrade" and "upgrade time reduced by 5%" are completely different.

Take this for example. If you upgrade 100% faster, it means you do twice the amount of work in the same time thereby cutting upgrade time in half. Or in other words, "100% faster upgrade" would be equivalent to "50% reduced upgrade time".

"5% faster upgrade" should be the same as "4.762% reduced upgrade time".
...
clearly Gree meant "5% reduced upgrade times", so that is a case of false advertising.

Thanks for the clear explanation.
Faster is indeed defined as increase in speed, not as less time.
Hopefully some people can learn something from this....

Ms Pickles
03-08-2013, 05:07 AM
I'm lol'ing at the false advertising post. The upgrade says that your building upgrades are 5% Faster. You assumed that this meant 5% of the original time, incorrectly. In reality, it's 5% off the current time. Which is exactly the formula presented. Your times after one upgrade are exactly 95% of what they were right before you purchased the upgrade. I'll go ahead and apologize to Gree that you don't understand 7th grade math for you.

TL:DR Percentage based bonuses are almost always multiplicative, in every game ever made.

What is your problem ? Gree has not explained this anywhere. It is misleading. There are many forum users did not understand. So why not answer them nicely ? I'll go ahead and apologize for your 7th grade attitude and 'I'm so clever ego'.

P4TR1C14N
03-08-2013, 05:11 AM
Guys, it's not false advertising. It has always been like this for all advantages in time, cost for gree games.

You get 5%... just not on the initial situation but calculated on the previous calculated situation.

Would be quite wrong to do pure cummulative reductions hehe... if you have a prize with 25% building time reduction from event and you get 4 of thos prizes, you're upgrades don't take anytime ;). Would be killing the game, don't you think?

Jean marc
03-08-2013, 06:49 AM
Thanks Ms Pickles, this is why i did asked the question most of the guild embers ask for an explanation. i am glad i got an answer anyway.
And yes i will keep asking question, pretty sure i will find people that can answered them without being snotty. i hate forum because of this, i stop going on the MW forum because it was getting out of hand over there.

Ms Pickles
03-08-2013, 07:17 AM
Yes I agree. I am new to this forum, have only just discovered its existence while searching for related matters for KA. But I am a long term forum user of many others and I have no tolerance for bully people who act like superior cock in henhouse.

domw001
03-08-2013, 07:32 AM
Yes I agree. I am new to this forum, have only just discovered its existence while searching for related matters for KA. But I am a long term forum user of many others and I have no tolerance for bully people who act like superior cock in henhouse.

Get a room you two.

And if you want to see a superior co-

Sorry?.....

OK

The mods have told me to stop right there.

sparckle
03-08-2013, 03:29 PM
Guys, it's not false advertising. It has always been like this for all advantages in time, cost for gree games.

You get 5%... just not on the initial situation but calculated on the previous calculated situation.

Would be quite wrong to do pure cummulative reductions hehe... if you have a prize with 25% building time reduction from event and you get 4 of thos prizes, you're upgrades don't take anytime ;). Would be killing the game, don't you think?

We already know the bonuses are multiplicative. If you read the later posts carefully, the issue is no longer about whether the upgrades are additive or multiplicative.

P4TR1C14N
03-08-2013, 03:37 PM
We already know the bonuses are multiplicative. If you read the later posts carefully, the issue is no longer about whether the upgrades are additive or multiplicative.

Sorry if i was not anymore on topic according to opening thread.

sparckle
03-08-2013, 08:15 PM
I think you mean you should be sorry for not reading.

warnpeace
03-08-2013, 10:06 PM
I just think it's misleading too. In Modern War and Crime City if you max out your Faction / Syndicate Info page will say 25%. Perhaps those two are wrong then? Was just expecting a little consistency...what was I thinking eh? ;)

warnpeace
03-08-2013, 10:07 PM
Thanks for chipping in guys. I was surprised to see so many responses.

Octofinger
03-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Still, Gree's calculations aren't correct.

Assume the following. Each upgrade gives a multiplicative reduction of upgrade time/cost of 5%. However, the wording is different, as you have pointed out. Upgrade cost is stated as "5% less".
As a 5% reduction means that the new cost is 1-0,05 = 95% of previous cost. That gives:
Lvl 1: 1-(1-0,05)^1=0,05 (=5%)
lvl2: 1-(1-0,05)^2=0,0975 (=10%)
lvl3: 1-(1-0,05)^3=0,1426 (=14%)
lvl4: 1-(1-0,05)^4=0,1855 (=19%)
lvl5: 1-(1-0,05)^5=0,2262 (=23%)

Which is not consistent with the actual reductions in upgrade cost which are 5%, 9%, 14%, 18% and 22% respectively.

If you look at upgrade speeds it becomes a little different. As the time for an upgrade is the inverse of the upgrade speed, upgrade time = 1/upgrade speed. So a 5% upgrade speed increase leads to a upgrade time reduction of 1-(1/(1+0,05))=0,0476, which is slightly less than 5% (Pardon the excess parentheses but I hope they improve readability). This would give the following:

lvl1: 1-(1/((1+0,05)^1))=0,0476 (=5%)
lvl2: 1-(1/((1+0,05)^2))=0,0930 (=9%)
lvl3 1-(1/((1+0,05)^3))=0,1362 (=14%)
lvl4: 1-(1/((1+0,05)^4))=0,1773 (=18%)
lvl5: 1-(1/((1+0,05)^5))=0,2165 (=22%)

So it turns out that considering their kind of ugly way of using the percentage (since you only have five levels, you could get five percent points per upgrade and still not exceed 25%), they calculate it correctly for upgrade time reduction, but NOT on building cost reduction.

So they have interpreted the bonuses in a way which would give you the absolute least benefit without not being completely lying about the upgrade speed. Incorrect, No. Ugly, yes.

There. My $0.02.

Shinazueli
03-14-2013, 06:24 PM
What is your problem ? Gree has not explained this anywhere. It is misleading. There are many forum users did not understand. So why not answer them nicely ? I'll go ahead and apologize for your 7th grade attitude and 'I'm so clever ego'.

Lol! I'm being called a bully for calling someone out on posting a dumb thread. Please allow me to explain.

First, this isn't kindergarten, where I am supposed to be huggy feely nice nice. I(and no other forumites) am not required to be nice to people who can't read. Allow me to post what an "acceptable" thread start would look like, to NOT get a smartass remark.

First off, posting in the OP that its false advertising was incredibly stupid. This alone deserved the post, because the OP clearly didn't understand the math behind it, and was making allegations. Do your homework before you go making posts.

Second, if you want people to have mercy on you for improper English or just poor comprehension, you can't expect us to assume that. You have to TELL us.

Third, life is full of bullies. The frigging Internet is full of Internet tough guys. I'm a generally nice person, as long as you aren't being dumb and inflammatory on a forum that I enjoy, or you will get flamed.

Finally, an example post of what this could have started out to avoid this entire conversation:

Thread title : upgrade time reduction - help don't understand

" I'm making this thread because I don't understand why it says -22% and I think it should be -25%. Can someone please take the time to explain it to me?"

Signature - "English is not my first language, please be considerate."

Wierd, youd have gotten a nicer answer because you a) admit your ignorance up front, and b) don't go making erroneous allegations in the OP.

Who knew?

And to the quoted person, think before defending the wrong point of view. If you go to an online forum posting about a video game, it's a completely fair assumption that you know a fair bit about video games in general, and the video game in question. Else, if you post something incorrectly, the community will feel the need to correct the misinformation, because people come here to learn. It's annoying that people come and post without reading ANY of the information that other forumites have done hours of work to put together for the specific purpose of informing people; last I checked, I'm still allowed to express annoyance in this country.

jonny0284
03-14-2013, 06:36 PM
Lol! I'm being called a bully for calling someone out on posting a dumb thread. Please allow me to explain.

First, this isn't kindergarten, where I am supposed to be huggy feely nice nice. I(and no other forumites) am not required to be nice to people who can't read. Allow me to post what an "acceptable" thread start would look like, to NOT get a smartass remark.

First off, posting in the OP that its false advertising was incredibly stupid. This alone deserved the post, because the OP clearly didn't understand the math behind it, and was making allegations. Do your homework before you go making posts.

Second, if you want people to have mercy on you for improper English or just poor comprehension, you can't expect us to assume that. You have to TELL us.

Third, life is full of bullies. The frigging Internet is full of Internet tough guys. I'm a generally nice person, as long as you aren't being dumb and inflammatory on a forum that I enjoy, or you will get flamed.

Finally, an example post of what this could have started out to avoid this entire conversation:

Thread title : upgrade time reduction - help don't understand

" I'm making this thread because I don't understand why it says -22% and I think it should be -25%. Can someone please take the time to explain it to me?"

Signature - "English is not my first language, please be considerate."

Wierd, youd have gotten a nicer answer because you a) admit your ignorance up front, and b) don't go making erroneous allegations in the OP.

Who knew?

And to the quoted person, think before defending the wrong point of view. If you go online to an online forum posting about a video game, it's a completely fair assumption that you know a fair bit about video games in general, and the video game in question. Else, if you post something incorrectly, the community will feel the need to correct the misinformation, because people come here to learn. It's annoying that people come and post without reading ANY of the information that other forumites have done hours of work to put together for the specific purpose of informing people; last I checked, I'm still allowed to express annoyance in this country.

Marry me on the forum. :p Our feelings are 100% the same.

(Ps you got me to post after nearly 2 weeks of silence and back to the shadows I go.)

Shinazueli
03-14-2013, 06:39 PM
I think you mean you should be sorry for not reading.

+1 x infinity.

Perfuzzie
03-14-2013, 06:42 PM
Marry me on the forum. :p Our feelings are 100% the same.

(Ps you got me to post after nearly 2 weeks of silence and back to the shadows I go.)

hahahaha first marriage on the forum :) welcome back jonny. we miss your comments here:D

Shinazueli
03-14-2013, 06:44 PM
Marry me on the forum. :p Our feelings are 100% the same.

(Ps you got me to post after nearly 2 weeks of silence and back to the shadows I go.)

I do live in California, but I'm sorry, my wife wouldn't dig that. We can do a bromance, though.

Jean marc
03-14-2013, 08:19 PM
Well taken, i am over it. Don't fell the need to add anything else.

darknite
03-15-2013, 01:10 PM
Nice calculation, but when i press the bonus button it say that i am buying 5%, nowhere does it say that i have to calculate to get to 14%, after i buy the 5%. This is called false advertising in my book. Our guild need more explanation on this. I did send a ticket to gree, but i only got the robot reply as usual.

first i thought its a bug problem too,another calculation for you

level 1 building upgrade 100 bonus 1 5% ,5 points ,whats left? 95
level 2 b.u. 95 ,bonus 2 5%,4.75=5, 90 left
level 3 b.u. 90 bonus 3 5% , 4.5 ,86 left
level 4 b.u. 86 bonus 4 5%,4.3 ,82 left
level 5 b.u. 82 bonus 5 5%,4,1 ,78 left right ! tricky calculation :cool:

darknite
03-15-2013, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=jonny0284;643374]Marry me on the forum. :p Our feelings are 100% the same.

(Ps you got me to post after nearly 2 weeks of silence and back to the shadows I go.


basically we are not buying level 5 '25%' bonus ,everytime we add 5% bonus on whats left from previous bonus.(5% deduction from previous level)