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Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 07:29 AM
Well, after posting an interesting thread about damage between armors, some forum member also did a research by himself about the damage bonus, need confirm by more people, thus I made this test to see what exactly damage bonus works.


1. Does dual elements give 50% damage bonus to mono element if against?

The answer is YES!

I target on the weakest mono Earth enemy on Relic Ruins, use two different armors.

M= Multiplier (An unfixed inter-median number to help us find out the relationship between elements)
D=Damage
A=Attack point
T=Times=1+Bonus

Hydra+ (fire/water, no against) ATK 1,014 Damage:3,260 M=D/A/T= 3.215
Regalia+ (fire/spirit, spirit against earth) ATK 1,446 Damage:6,974 T=D/A/M=1.5

We can see the Times=1.5=1+Bonus=0.5=50% Thus the theory has been proved:)


2. Does dual elements give 100% damage bonus to dual elements if fully against its elements?

The answer is YES too!

This time, I target on the Boss named Chimera (Earth/Spirit) in Sparkling Steppes.

Hydra+ (fire/water, fire against spirit) ATK 1,014 Damage: 533 M=D/A/T=0.35
Regalia+ (fire/spirit, fire against spirit, spirit against earth, fully against) ATK 1,446 Damage: 1013 Thus T=D/A/M=2.00

We can see dual elements do give 100% damage bonus if fully against enemy's dual elements, the theory has been proved again:)


3. Does the Mono element give Mono elements 100% damage bonus if against?

The answer is NO! :(

Many people may like me before, think the answer should be 100%, however, the fact is not...

Test again.

This time, I target on a mono element boss named Crimson Dragon (pure Fire) in Flaming Wildwood, and I also use two different elements which help to calculate and understand how this work.

Half Dragon+ (fire/earth, no against) ATK 1089 Damage: 866 M=D/A/T=0.797
Nemesis (water, water against fire) ATK 731 Damage: 872 T=D/A/M=1.497=1.5
Atlantean+(water/wind, water against fire) ATK 983 Damage: 1173 T=D/A/M=1.497=1.5

After calculating the Multiplier number, we can use that work on figuring out the Times/1+damage bonus.

Now we can see the Times/1+damage bonus are same, that's Bonus=T-1=0.5=50% no matter Mono or Dual elements against on Mono elements. Thus the theory has been proved it is wrong, the correct damage bonus is 50% :(

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Well I can say, for many other games, the elements calculation are different than K&D, let me give you an example of a 10+ years ago online game in China, named Stone Age, few of you, especially in Asia, probably have heard of that. You can see which calculation is BETTER.

There are 4 elements in the game, EARTH>WATER>FIRE>WIND>EARTH

Each people has 10 element points, can only choose 1 or 2 elements as his element. You can choose 10 EARTH for example, or 10 WIND or whatever.

But If you gonna choose 2 elements, those two elements must be linear, thus if you choose EARTH, you must choose another WATER or WIND, you can make them 5 and 5 points each, or 3 & 7 points each or 1 & 9 points each, what ever you like, total would be 10.

For the element calculation, it is directly multiply together.

Example 1.

10 EARTH VS 10 WATER

The damage bonus would be 10*10=100=100%

Example 2.

10 EARTH VS 5 WATER 5 FIRE

The damage bonus would be 10*5=50=50%

Example 3.

5 WATER 5 FIRE VS 5 FIRE 5 WIND

The damage bonus would be (see carefully): 5*5+5*5=25+25=50=50%

Example 4.

5 WATER 5 FIRE VS 5 WIND 5 EARTH

The damage bonus would be 0, because FIRE BEATS WIND, BUT WATER GETS BEATEN BY EARTH.


Now we can see the superiority of this old game:

1) if you choose 2 elements and diversify your risk, you should not received 100% damage bonus as other choices. 50% is very fair for its choice, you can give the enemy 50% damage for the max, or get against 50% from the enemy, or 0 bonus when both against each other. That's why dual elements so famous and popular, and most importantly, equal fair to Mono element.

2) if you choose 1 element against another 1 elements, that damage bonus sure to be 100%, not in K&D's 50% (this is quite ridiculous in K&D, makes mono elements sucks).
In this game, there are still many people choose Mono element, because most NPCs are 10 EARTH, thus 10 WIND can have 100% damage bonus to them, and 50% damage decrease from the NPCs, see, it is fair! Mono element should deserve a higher damage bonus by himself or enemy than dual elements (in K&D, mono element totally dominated by Dual elements).


* And another superiority of this game is, If your element get beaten by the enemy, your attack will NOT remain 100%, there would be a no more than 50% damage decrease due to the element get fully against by others.

For example, Both ATK 10 DEF 5

Person 1 get 10 EARTH
Person 2 get 10 WATER

Thus the damage from 1 to 2 is (10-5)*(1+100% or 200%)=10
And the damage from 2 to 1 is (10-5)*(1-50%)=2.5

See, it is so vivid and reasonable and more close to reality!

I do not believe if you can fully show your power when you are fully against by the enemy.


Thus we can see K&D really needs to learn from many others game, even the old 10+ years game got superiority than K&D.


Anyway, this thread does answer how does elements calculation works.


Thx for watching:cool:

Luthienwind
05-08-2013, 08:42 AM
The test I did, is just to verify that dual elements armor doesn't mean it is better than mono armor. if you look at top best armor, you can find weakness and common elements within them. Thus, certain mono armor have an edge because of it deal extra dmg but doesn't receive extra dmg. I am still doing some research but lacking of gold and cash.

zhy
05-08-2013, 09:01 AM
depends on what dual armor. yes all can have double weakness, but there is a difference, those craftable 50s dual elements are very weak in this case cuz they dont have any bonus against the armors which have double bonus against em, while some 70s elements can defend well :

rocfeather, sky guardian : double weakness against infernal n half dragon, but also bonus against em
infernal, half dragon : double weakness against spectral (not big deal as spectral stats suck), n have also bonus against it
shaman, deep dragon : double weakness against rocfeather n sky guardian, but also bonus against em

ofc there are also armors which have normal bonus against these ones, but at least there are none with double bonus without weakness

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 09:24 AM
The point is the Mono element should have equal status like Dual elements.

Do you know what I mean?

If there are 10 points elements, Mono element in only 5, Dual element is 5+5, the Mono element should be 10, that can be equal to dual.

From the stats, most of dual elements armors are much better than Mono armors. It is pretty ridiculous that when against Pure fire dragons, Hydramancer's mantle+ is WEAKER than Storm sorcerer+, how can the mono elements gain equal damage bonus to dual elements?

If wanna make this balance, can Either make mono element have 100% damage bonus or received 100% damage bonus from enemy, Or make the Dual elements bonus to 25% each.


depends on what dual armor. yes all can have double weakness, but there is a difference, those craftable 50s dual elements are very weak in this case cuz they dont have any bonus against the armors which have double bonus against em, while some 70s elements can defend well :

rocfeather, sky guardian : double weakness against infernal n half dragon, but also bonus against em
infernal, half dragon : double weakness against spectral (not big deal as spectral stats suck), n have also bonus against it
shaman, deep dragon : double weakness against rocfeather n sky guardian, but also bonus against em

ofc there are also armors which have normal bonus against these ones, but at least there are none with double bonus without weakness

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
The test I did, is just to verify that dual elements armor doesn't mean it is better than mono armor. if you look at top best armor, you can find weakness and common elements within them. Thus, certain mono armor have an edge because of it deal extra dmg but doesn't receive extra dmg. I am still doing some research but lacking of gold and cash.

From the damage bonus, you can already see mono is dominated by dual.

If the max points of elements is 10, for now, mono element is 5, dual is 5+5, only be equal when the mono becomes 10.

You can compare the Hydramancer+ vs Storm Sorcerer+, both use them to against Mono fire, Hydramancer even much weaker+ than Storm Sorcerer+, even Mono fully against mono can LOSE to dual against mono, just because storm sorcerer+ get 200+ higher attack? That's ridiculous.

Just like you have a gun, I have two guns, one similar to you but stronger than yours, what's your feeling?
Although you may say my another gun may against by other gun, true, but do not forget another gun can against others too, that's equal chance.
BUT due to I have one more guns than you, I have more chances. Even face same enemy which we both against him, I still better than you.

That's the real point of current issue.

And the Mono element is rubbish, you cannot find any one which can compete to dual, no experienced players would use mono armor in arena fight.

And last, you forgot one thing, when mono against others, it will not receive damage bonus,
BUT when you receive damage bonus, you will not give any damage bonus.
Chances are Equal.

Luthienwind
05-08-2013, 09:58 AM
My concept the test subject cannot be using a flame dragon but an enemy with flame armor. Firstly, Hydro is pure water, weakness is air, strong against fire. When fighting enemy with fire attribute it receive normal dmg but deal more dmg. This is a two ways gain. You can increase your company profit by 20% by reduce expense by 10%. I am unsure whether u can understand what I said.

If you use stormrage to fight mono fire armor, the result will be the same. However, most players use dual elements. Thus, use half dragon armor vs dark prince armor, both have extra dmg to each. It boils down to who strike first and how long their Hp is. Think of what I am trying to said, a team should have certain degree of combination. Dual have its str and weakness, so is mono it can be less targeted and only have advantage over the weaker armor. If mono armor meet another mono armor, then it boils down to who strike first and who have a higher attack.

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 10:34 AM
Actually you miscount that thing.

Every elements, no matter dual or mono, facing with other elements if not against, will equally remain 100% attack, thus you should not add it to the so called 20% for 10%, actually it is 10% to 10%.

As I said before, everything has EQUAL chances.

You've only focus on LESS target, true, but you ignore the less chance to gain more damage bonus.

As I repeatedly say, CHANCES ARE EQUALS......

The only different is dual have more varieties, mono is less. But the chance of win or lose or deuce is symmetry to them.


What I am focus, is to make the mono become more useful than before.

Compare mono to dual from the stats, you cannot find find example that mono is no worse than dual, both average points or highest points armors, dual sure to win, mono is dominated.

Let me make an simpler example, try to let you know...

We both have same time, I learn both math and physic, you spend all time focus on physic, do you think our physic score should be equal?

This metaphor in K&D is now mono only learn physic and had worse score than dual who learn both subjects, see is that fair?

Thus I would suggest that make the damage bonus double for mono. You should know mono have less chance to gain damage bonus than dual, thus when it elements against the enemy, this damage bonus should be larger than dual, do you understand now?
My concept the test subject cannot be using a flame dragon but an enemy with flame armor. Firstly, Hydro is pure water, weakness is air, strong against fire. When fighting enemy with fire attribute it receive normal dmg but deal more dmg. This is a two ways gain. You can increase your company profit by 20% by reduce expense by 10%. I am unsure whether u can understand what I said.

If you use stormrage to fight mono fire armor, the result will be the same. However, most players use dual elements. Thus, use half dragon armor vs dark prince armor, both have extra dmg to each. It boils down to who strike first and how long their Hp is. Think of what I am trying to said, a team should have certain degree of combination. Dual have its str and weakness, so is mono it can be less targeted and only have advantage over the weaker armor. If mono armor meet another mono armor, then it boils down to who strike first and who have a higher attack.

Luthienwind
05-08-2013, 10:56 AM
Lets do a test.

if both armor have same attack and defense, say 10 attack, both character have 100 HP. If you use spirit armor against earth and wind armor, normal attack is 10, extra dmg will be 5. Spirt armor will deal 15 dmg and 20 for special attack, but fire armor will deal 10 dmg and 15 special dmg. Without special spirit armor need 7 times to finish the enemy but a earth and wind armor needs 10 times.

If both armors are against each, the first strike will have the advantage, but mono armor is prone to one element disadvantage. Dual elements have higher chances to deal extra dmg and a higher chance to receive to receive more. You maybe right that mono needs to be stronger but it may cause imbalance.

Raistmar
05-08-2013, 11:04 AM
My concept the test subject cannot be using a flame dragon but an enemy with flame armor. Firstly, Hydro is pure water, weakness is air, strong against fire. When fighting enemy with fire attribute it receive normal dmg but deal more dmg. This is a two ways gain. You can increase your company profit by 20% by reduce expense by 10%. I am unsure whether u can understand what I said.

If you use stormrage to fight mono fire armor, the result will be the same. However, most players use dual elements. Thus, use half dragon armor vs dark prince armor, both have extra dmg to each. It boils down to who strike first and how long their Hp is. Think of what I am trying to said, a team should have certain degree of combination. Dual have its str and weakness, so is mono it can be less targeted and only have advantage over the weaker armor. If mono armor meet another mono armor, then it boils down to who strike first and who have a higher attack.

This post made more sense compared to your other post.

I get what you mean when you say that a mono element has a better chance of winning against some armor cause instead of having 2 weaknesses that can be targeted by your opponent there's only one.

So with the hydromancer as an example, if you come against a regalia you would be doing 50% more dmg due to water dominating fire but you won't have the weakness of a swamp shaman earth which would be dominated by the regalia's spirit element. That's how I understood your post.

As on Harvey's part what he is pointing out is that a dual element has the ability to deal an extra 100% dmg when both of your opponent's element is dominated. He's tryig to say that a mono should also be able to deal a 100% extra dmg when it comes across a mono.

As of now a mono element is underwhelmed by the dual elemental armor as they have the capacity to do 2x the dmg. Compared to a mono that will only have x1.5 dmg.

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 11:07 AM
Dude.....please read my post carefully again.

You cannot compare like this way....

You mono spirit, I dual wind/water

If test in your way, I can say:

When face water, I got bonus, you got nothing.
When face fire, I got bonus, you got beaten.

This comparison is really ridiculous...

If you wanna fully compare mono and dual, you should consider all situations.



Lets do a test.

if both armor have same attack and defense, say 10 attack, both character have 100 HP. If you use spirit armor against earth and wind armor, normal attack is 10, extra dmg will be 5. Spirt armor will deal 15 dmg and 20 for special attack, but fire armor will deal 10 dmg and 15 special dmg. Without special spirit armor need 7 times to finish the enemy but a earth and wind armor needs 10 times.

If both armors are against each, the first strike will have the advantage, but mono armor is prone to one element disadvantage. Dual elements have higher chances to deal extra dmg and a higher chance to receive to receive more. You maybe right that mono needs to be stronger but it may cause imbalance.

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 11:11 AM
Yep, that's exactly what I mean.

He just keep ignoring one thing, that's chance of get bonus, deuce, or got beaten is symmetry.

The different is mono is less flexible and dual is dynamic.

And for the maximum bonus, dual can gain 100%, mono can only gain 50%, that's the key point which he cannot understand even for now......
This post made more sense compared to your other post.

I get what you mean when you say that a mono element has a better chance of winning against some armor cause instead of having 2 weaknesses that can be targeted by your opponent there's only one.

So with the hydromancer as an example, if you come against a regalia you would be doing 50% more dmg due to water dominating fire but you won't have the weakness of a swamp shaman earth which would be dominated by the regalia's spirit element. That's how I understood your post.

As on Harvey's part what he is pointing out is that a dual element has the ability to deal an extra 100% dmg when both of your opponent's element is dominated. He's tryig to say that a mono should also be able to deal a 100% extra dmg when it comes across a mono.

As of now a mono element is underwhelmed by the dual elemental armor as they have the capacity to do 2x the dmg. Compared to a mono that will only have x1.5 dmg.

Luthienwind
05-08-2013, 11:48 AM
I understand you mean, what I am saying is that dual elements doesn't not mean that is better than mono. Dual elements have a chance to do 100% dmg but also have the chance to receive. Mono can do 50% dmg but is target but only by one element. Nitez.

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 11:57 AM
The superiority is dynamic.
If you can do 1 -1 and I can do 1 -1 2 -2 3 -3 Ofc I'm better than you, after great combinations, my team can have much better effect than yours.
And for the stats, dual much better than mono too.

Thus mono is dominated by dual for now.

If you still don't believe what I say, pick 3 mono lv70 armors and max them out, no matter how you place the order, I can sure to kill you all.
I understand you mean, what I am saying is that dual elements doesn't not mean that is better than mono. Dual elements have a chance to do 100% dmg but also have the chance to receive. Mono can do 50% dmg but is target but only by one element. Nitez.

Vigorous
05-08-2013, 12:05 PM
Yeah I get Luther where you are coming from but I beleive Harvey is right. Duel still dominates. Now if they switched mono to 100% bonus it could be a differant story as Harvey said.

Harvey Guo
05-08-2013, 12:12 PM
Yep, make it 100% would be different story, and it is a good start.

I still like the element calculation in Stone age, in that game, Pure element means Maximum degree of gain or lost, if people diversify their elements into 50% 50%, then the gain or lose will never as high as Pure, even fully against the enemy, can only be 50%. And if Pure against half, that would be 50% gain or lose, pretty interesting.

For K&D, the calculation of elements actually inconsistency, due to their style: If the old factors cannot make them money, they always ignore them, no matter how bad it is. What they do is to produce new things to distract people's mind, let people purchase new and forget old.
Yeah I get Luther where you are coming from but I beleive Harvey is right. Duel still dominates. Now if they switched mono to 100% bonus it could be a differant story as Harvey said.

Raistmar
05-08-2013, 12:13 PM
I understand you mean, what I am saying is that dual elements doesn't not mean that is better than mono. Dual elements have a chance to do 100% dmg but also have the chance to receive. Mono can do 50% dmg but is target but only by one element. Nitez.

But dual's flexibility overall exceeds any + point a mono has. Because a dual can dominate 2 elements and if you have a proper armor set you can cover all element on your team and get the benefit of having the possibility of doing 2x damage compared to a mon which only covers one, so your range is very limited so is your dmg.

So with using a mono placing it at the right spot every time you fight would be vital. Cause that's the only way I can see it shine compared to a dual. So when you find a way to do that in every fight then you would have a very valid point.

maple1736
05-08-2013, 05:13 PM
Yep, make it 100% would be different story, and it is a good start.

I still like the element calculation in Stone age, in that game, Pure element means Maximum degree of gain or lost, if people diversify their elements into 50% 50%, then the gain or lose will never as high as Pure, even fully against the enemy, can only be 50%. And if Pure against half, that would be 50% gain or lose, pretty interesting.

For K&D, the calculation of elements actually inconsistency, due to their style: If the old factors cannot make them money, they always ignore them, no matter how bad it is. What they do is to produce new things to distract people's mind, let people purchase new and forget old.

I totally understand your point as I know the store age game. The only thing for this game tho is it is not that comprehensive and need not to be! The key for them is to get the new boss with new items out in an attempt to make ppl buy gems! One day they will be out of ideas and as old ones will be replaced by new more powerful ones and this goes one and on, no matter how goods suggestions like this will be, it just won't happen because it won't bring them money! I am sure you know and possibly have played a number of these elements games(water,fire,earth ... Like the old pockmon ones) and there are actually plenty scope for improvement for this one! There are only 5 elements here and what you said is very valid, but I think if there is one more element in the chain, the story is indeed totally different. Probably that is much better than increasing the mono to 100%.

Another interesting suggestion (might be off this topic) is making a specific range of damage rather than fix so that the luck element play more parts and it might not be that dry for, e.g. Two identical players with Max statues. It is too bored for who hit first to get max change of winner!

GrumpyDude
05-08-2013, 08:29 PM
Newby here... First of all, I'd like to thank all those who have shared their experiences here with those of us who have just recently found the game.

On the topic of single element armor and its equality vs dual element armor, the one thing that I don't see being accounted for here is cost (perhaps I missed it - I've been reading a LOT of posts the past day or so). With single element armor being relatively cheap to craft, might that play into the equation?

Just a thought... Be gentle... ;-)

Grumpy

deathexe
05-08-2013, 08:46 PM
Newby here... First of all, I'd like to thank all those who have shared their experiences here with those of us who have just recently found the game.

On the topic of single element armor and its equality vs dual element armor, the one thing that I don't see being accounted for here is cost (perhaps I missed it - I've been reading a LOT of posts the past day or so). With single element armor being relatively cheap to craft, might that play into the equation?

Just a thought... Be gentle... ;-)

Grumpy

If anything, mono elements are actually harder to enchance. If you compare a hydromancer's mantle (water), to let's say a deep dragon (water and earth) . Since they're both level 70 armors, it would take the same amount of EP to level both of them up. However, in the case of deep dragon, you'll have a wider choice of armors to use as enchantment material.

Luthienwind
05-08-2013, 08:56 PM
My saying is Mono can be advantage If you use it strategically as what Ras said. I agree Maple on the dmg should have a range, a fixed dmg will be boring when both players max all armors up.

For Grumpy, the easiest and cheapest is to enhance is water and earth elements because of snakeskin, it cost $3k and have enhancement point of 24 when fuse with same elements. Thus, it can be costly to lvl Mono armor. Enjoy!

GrumpyDude
05-08-2013, 09:38 PM
If anything, mono elements are actually harder to enchance. If you compare a hydromancer's mantle (water), to let's say a deep dragon (water and earth) . Since they're both level 70 armors, it would take the same amount of EP to level both of them up. However, in the case of deep dragon, you'll have a wider choice of armors to use as enchantment material.

OK... So, being an FNG, I was thinking of some of the lower level single element armors. I've only seen the ones you are referring to in the movies. I'll go back to reading now....

Grumpy

GrumpyDude
05-08-2013, 09:44 PM
For Grumpy, the easiest and cheapest is to enhance is water and earth elements because of snakeskin, it cost $3k and have enhancement point of 24 when fuse with same elements. Thus, it can be costly to lvl Mono armor. Enjoy!

Hmmmm... If I can get 6 EP with basic water armor for 300 gold (assuming like elements), then for that same 3000 gold I could get 60 EP by crafting and fusing 10 water armors. It even takes less time (50 minutes) to craft.

What am I missing here?

deathexe
05-08-2013, 10:08 PM
OK... So, being an FNG, I was thinking of some of the lower level single element armors. I've only seen the ones you are referring to in the movies. I'll go back to reading now....

Grumpy

Well, almost all other lower leveled mono element armors are basically useless unless used for enchancing, so unless you're comparing mono element 70 armors to dual element 70 armors, I can't see where you're coming from.

deathexe
05-08-2013, 10:10 PM
Hmmmm... If I can get 6 EP with basic water armor for 300 gold (assuming like elements), then for that same 3000 gold I could get 60 EP by crafting and fusing 10 water armors. It even takes less time (50 minutes) to craft.

What am I missing here?

You're missing out the cost that's required for the actual enchancement process. In the higher levels of a armor, let's say 55, each enchancement slot cost around 15k if I'm not wrong. If you're going to use 10 basic water armors instead of one snakeskin, it's gonna cost 150k just for 60ep. As compared to using 4 snakeskin armors which only amount to 60k enchancement cost and 96ep

GrumpyDude
05-08-2013, 11:19 PM
You're missing out the cost that's required for the actual enchancement process. In the higher levels of a armor, let's say 55, each enchancement slot cost around 15k if I'm not wrong. If you're going to use 10 basic water armors instead of one snakeskin, it's gonna cost 150k just for 60ep. As compared to using 4 snakeskin armors which only amount to 60k enchancement cost and 96ep

Ok, that makes sense. I knew I had to be missing something since everyone has dismissed the basic armors as useless.

Thanks

GrumpyDude
05-08-2013, 11:23 PM
Well, almost all other lower leveled mono element armors are basically useless unless used for enchancing, so unless you're comparing mono element 70 armors to dual element 70 armors, I can't see where you're coming from.

That's just it... I wasn't thinking about 70 armors since I've never seen them. In fact, until I spent some time working through the spreadsheet, I didn't even know that mono-element 70 armors existed. I get it now.

Grumpy