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Monteverdi
06-30-2013, 11:28 AM
There are 3 new armors in the winter LTQ but even though those stats are better than my old one, they are not equipped. This seems to be another bug ?

JPNy
06-30-2013, 11:33 AM
It depends on your class and the class of the armors. A mage armor can't be equipped by a rogue player for example. same for weapons.

Finsfan
06-30-2013, 11:38 AM
I was thinking the same thing about my armor, but I noticed the defense on my old armor was better than the new (even though the attack was higher). Wish we could choose as I would rather have more attack than defense (since defense doesn't do anything against mobs)

Belcar
06-30-2013, 11:39 AM
You might also need to define 'better'. I believe your profile shows the armour with highest defence you can use, and the weapon with highest attack you can use.

But these might not be the ones you actually use in attack/defence!

That's how I read the very first entry in the FAQ:
https://games.gree-support.net/entri...ngdom-Age-FAQs

So if the 'better' armour has higher attack, but lower defence, the FAQ indicates you use it in attack, but the one showing on your profile is what you use in defence.

Belcar
06-30-2013, 11:42 AM
Sorry,the FAQ URL got truncated. It should be: https://games.gree-support.net/entries/21775040-Kingdom-Age-FAQs

Euchred
06-30-2013, 12:09 PM
You might also need to define 'better'. I believe your profile shows the armour with highest defence you can use, and the weapon with highest attack you can use.

But these might not be the ones you actually use in attack/defence!

That's how I read the very first entry in the FAQ:
https://games.gree-support.net/entri...ngdom-Age-FAQs

So if the 'better' armour has higher attack, but lower defence, the FAQ indicates you use it in attack, but the one showing on your profile is what you use in defence.

I'd argue that that statement is dated and incorrect. When you get the new armour your attack max and min don't change at all. It'd be great if Sirius can bring some clarity here and maybe suggest giving the players the option to pick there equipment in the future.

ezinap
06-30-2013, 12:50 PM
I think you mean the damage on mobs doesnt change. That is what I've noticed.
So armor is probably not used at all in that calculation.

Euchred
06-30-2013, 01:09 PM
I think you mean the damage on mobs doesnt change. That is what I've noticed.
So armor is probably not used at all in that calculation.

Armour attack does factor in to the damage you do vs mobs. An easy way to tell is to start a new game and see how much damage you do then buy a better armour and you will notice your damage go up.

ezinap
07-01-2013, 06:51 AM
In the meantime I have picked up the 44/126 armor. I noted that my attack went up with 42.
I don't get what you mean by attack max and min don't change.

Euchred
07-01-2013, 07:32 AM
In the meantime I have picked up the 44/126 armor. I noted that my attack went up with 42.
I don't get what you mean by attack max and min don't change.

It means your damage range vs mobs. For example I do 207-276. Then I proceed to get an armour that has 15 more attack points and nothing changes meaning it doesn't get used.

Shinazueli
07-01-2013, 12:14 PM
Ahem. As the original contributor of the equation used in the FAQ, I feel you aren't properly using it. Armor attack IS used in the calculation. It's unfortunate that they have the game coded to always use the highest defense armor, but that's the way they chose to do it. I've since reverified the equation and it is still accurate at higher levels of hero strength then I was able to get before.

HS + WA + AA = maximum possible damage, where WA is weapon attack and AA is armor attack. Take that number and multiply by about 75% to get the minimum attack number. This will correlate (within a reasonable degree of accuracy) to your minimum and maximum damage. The spread gets larger as you get higher, but your maximum damage does always go up. Note that due to the way it's set up your average damage will be your minimum + maximum damage over 2, or about 87.5% of the above calculated value, and each point of hero strength will increase your maximum damage by one, and therefore increases your average damage by about 0.5.

This message brought to you by math, and viewers like you.

Nyx-AC
07-01-2013, 02:55 PM
Ahem. As the original contributor of the equation used in the FAQ, I feel you aren't properly using it. Armor attack IS used in the calculation. It's unfortunate that they have the game coded to always use the highest defense armor, but that's the way they chose to do it. I've since reverified the equation and it is still accurate at higher levels of hero strength then I was able to get before.

HS + WA + AA = maximum possible damage, where WA is weapon attack and AA is armor attack. Take that number and multiply by about 75% to get the minimum attack number. This will correlate (within a reasonable degree of accuracy) to your minimum and maximum damage. The spread gets larger as you get higher, but your maximum damage does always go up. Note that due to the way it's set up your average damage will be your minimum + maximum damage over 2, or about 87.5% of the above calculated value, and each point of hero strength will increase your maximum damage by one, and therefore increases your average damage by about 0.5.

This message brought to you by math, and viewers like you.


HS = 230, WA = 115, AA = 44

...and I have seen hits as high as 345, never higher. This is probably over about 200+ swings. This leads me to conclude that max damage = HS + WA.

If AA counts, I should be seeing hits between 346 and 390. It's not happening though, ever.

Shinazueli
07-01-2013, 03:07 PM
HS = 230, WA = 115, AA = 44

...and I have seen hits as high as 345, never higher. This is probably over about 200+ swings. This leads me to conclude that max damage = HS + WA.

If AA counts, I should be seeing hits between 346 and 390. It's not happening though, ever.

I've verified it correlating within + or - 3 points at HS of 60/80/100/120/140 and it's a straight linear function so far. As I go up I'll add more points but I'm pretty sure.

For reference I'm at HS 147 WA 115 and Armor 44 and my max hit over the last week including thousands of swings is 304. Pretty darn close I'd say.

Maybe 200 swings isn't enough data? Or you missed the higher ones? I know it can be hard to stare at the screen for an hour of straight tapping.

Or there may actually be a diminishing returns factor in the HS, but I haven't seen any evidence of one yet. To really get good data I use an LTQ as a data set because I know ill swing a thousand times and that helps to get a normal distribution.

Euchred
07-01-2013, 05:28 PM
It's unfortunate that they have the game coded to always use the highest defense armor, but that's the way they chose to do it.

This is the bottom line. And the point of this thread, We want to use the better attacking armour.

Shinazueli
07-01-2013, 05:42 PM
This is the bottom line. And the point of this thread, We want to use the better attacking armour.

And I want one of these:

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a526/shinazueli/image_zpsad214b66.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/shinazueli/media/image_zpsad214b66.jpg.html)

But seriously, lets just assume for the sake of argument that they allow the higher attacking armor to be used and that brings your average attack up by, lets say, 5%. Then, if I'm a Gree-dy game designer, I just give each mob 5% more health. They aren't in the business of giving away free awesome units for our entertainment, much to some people's displeasure. They are in the business of squeezing out every penny they can from our wallets, and it's the one thing that they are devilishly good at. So just deal with it, like everyone else.

Nyx-AC
07-01-2013, 07:01 PM
I've verified it correlating within + or - 3 points at HS of 60/80/100/120/140 and it's a straight linear function so far. As I go up I'll add more points but I'm pretty sure.

For reference I'm at HS 147 WA 115 and Armor 44 and my max hit over the last week including thousands of swings is 304. Pretty darn close I'd say.

Maybe 200 swings isn't enough data? Or you missed the higher ones? I know it can be hard to stare at the screen for an hour of straight tapping.

Or there may actually be a diminishing returns factor in the HS, but I haven't seen any evidence of one yet. To really get good data I use an LTQ as a data set because I know ill swing a thousand times and that helps to get a normal distribution.

Just finished doing a 60 swing trial 15 mins ago. I had every swing typed out, but it must have taken too long on the webpage because when I finally went to post it the page said I had entered a wrong answer for the secret question and I lost all the hits I typed in (I was the idiot for not copying the data first). Here is the summary, though:

60 swings, 18483 total damage, 308.05 average
high hit was 345 (4 times), low hit was 259 (1 time, though had some 262 hits as well).
308.05 is roughly 1/2 way between 345 and 259

Again, HS = 230, WA = 115, AA = 44

Nyx-AC
07-01-2013, 07:03 PM
Oh, and 259 is 75.07% of 345, so your 75% of max for minimum theory seems correct.

Nyx-AC
07-01-2013, 07:17 PM
60 swings should be enough to get an idea on that, IMHO. If I had to swing over 200 times just to see a single hit over 345 that would signify AA factoring into that, I would surmise that AA is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things anyway.

In the 60 hits I did, I had numerous intervals of data...like 345, 338, 324, 321, 317, 314, 307, 296, 293, 286, etc down to 259. Many of those intervals showed up multiple times. This means that HS and WA were affecting it on every single hit, since I would have never made the max (and min) of HS + WA if they weren't.

Bottom line is AA was not affecting it, else I could not have hit the minimum of 259. If AA, which was 44, was being added into the equation at all, then my mimimum hit according to your equation would have been no lower than (0.75)(230+115+44), or 291.

I had several hits in the 260's, 270's, and 280's.

Euchred
07-01-2013, 07:18 PM
So just deal with it, like everyone else.

What do you think I've been doing, I've been here as long as anybody.

Nyx-AC
07-01-2013, 07:26 PM
Shin, the data I am supplying is not meant to degrade your viewpoint, so I hope you aren't taking it that way. Like yourself, I just like to get to the bottom of things.

It is possible that for my character, the armor I am using or whatever if broken. Or, maybe because my HS is so high, I don't get the beneft of AA . Who knows how Gree decided to work the parameters on this stuff?

I would like things to be a little more transparent though. Maybe a little (max/min) entry on our profile page to clarify what we are trying to confirm.

Silent follower
07-02-2013, 12:03 AM
Shin, the data I am supplying is not meant to degrade your viewpoint, so I hope you aren't taking it that way. Like yourself, I just like to get to the bottom of things.

It is possible that for my character, the armor I am using or whatever if broken. Or, maybe because my HS is so high, I don't get the beneft of AA . Who knows how Gree decided to work the parameters on this stuff?

I would like things to be a little more transparent though. Maybe a little (max/min) entry on our profile page to clarify what we are trying to confirm.

Here I have to agree Nyx-AC. Because of this thread I've been keeping an eye on my damages my Hero does. My starting point was before the new weapons from this LTQ. I had Thorn of the Drake (89/79) and Dragonscale Plate (44/126). With this combo I did a minimum average of just over 190 damage, and with a max of around 260.

Then I got the Kaithen Executioner weapon 102/92, an increase of 13 points of damage. I have then done hundreds of hits with this combo (guild quest...). My minimum increased to around 215, while the max went to around 285. So there was an increase in both ends with this new weapon.

Today I got the Kaithen Plate, 59/118, and if my hero would be using it for attacks, the increase should be that same, as the damage done from the armor was increased with 15. But I killed now the Kato Frost Queen, had to do around 50 hits to it, and my min or max brackets are unchanged. The second to last hit was 212, which was exactly same as my previous low with the Executioner/Dragonscale combo. Therefore I can say that my new Kaithen Plate isn't used. If it was, I couldn't have done the same minimum damage.

Sirius, can you check this bug? I did a support ticket too, that it is logged, or would you do the fast solution to this by increasing all Kaithen armor defenses to 128? Then our heroes would equip them and you would have more time to solve the bug you have.

Can somebody else soon getting the Kaithen plate do similar checks for their damages before and after the Kaithen plate?

Pophai
07-02-2013, 01:24 AM
Your hero alway uses weapon with strongest attack and armor with strongest defense.
Kaithen Plate (59/118) has not as much defense as Dragonscale Plate (44/126) --> Dragonscale Plate is equipped

Itīs easy.

Silent follower
07-02-2013, 02:47 AM
Your hero alway uses weapon with strongest attack and armor with strongest defense.
Kaithen Plate (59/118) has not as much defense as Dragonscale Plate (44/126) --> Dragonscale Plate is equipped

Itīs easy.

But why did they then create this armor? No hero will ever use them, as all have got a 44/126 armor from the Normal levels. This was my original message to Sirius, that make the Kaithen armors a little stronger like 59/128 instead of the current 59/118 and we could enjoy them.

Punzar
07-02-2013, 05:53 AM
But why did they then create this armor? No hero will ever use them, as all have got a 44/126 armor from the Normal levels. This was my original message to Sirius, that make the Kaithen armors a little stronger like 59/128 instead of the current 59/118 and we could enjoy them.

This is getting back to the important point of the thread. You math whizzes got distracted. It really doesn't make sense. I can offer three solutions:

1) Make weapons only have attack and armor only have defense (probably a little late for that).
2) Make it so people can choose what weapons and armor they equip and use.
3) Make sure if they intend to provide upgraded armor, both stats are increased over what they are intending to upgrade.

I doubt that anything can be done on this LTQ at this point. The easiest solution is #3... if Gree keeps that in mind in the future, it wouldn't require and programming to alleviate the issue.

Skyraiders
07-02-2013, 06:17 AM
I just want to add one thing that may or may not be relavant.

givin the way the game is set up. Are you sure you are using the armor and weapons you "see" your hero equipped with??

I mean When your army is attacking you get the best offensive unit you own on the field of battle. When your being attacked you get the best defensive units you own.

Would the armor and weapons work the same way. So i am equiped with a armor that has an attack of 44....but ...i have armor that has 59 att. should this be part of your equation.

Just one example...is the Cupids Bow...even though you dont have it equipped ...you still get the bonus army att of +100.

I could be wrong but the "rules " of the game dont seem to change when dealing with units/weapons/armor.

What do you think???

Greybeard
07-02-2013, 07:15 AM
And, to further muddy the water, just what does the defense rating of your armor do and when does it come in to play? Is there a difference between having it equipped and having it being used by your army. Both count towards your defense total, right?

John 3013
07-02-2013, 08:28 AM
I am of the opinion that most of the equipment awarded as quest prizes are intended to equip your allies and not your hero character. This is unfortunate ... and somewhat expensive when you consider the amount of energy required to get through the stage ...

I am, however, a proud owner of the "Sword of 1000 Winters" and look forwards to introducing you to it if I happen to meet you in my journeys :)

Shinazueli
07-02-2013, 09:45 AM
And, to further muddy the water, just what does the defense rating of your armor do and when does it come in to play? Is there a difference between having it equipped and having it being used by your army. Both count towards your defense total, right?

It affects your hero's avoidance. Hard to tell for sure, but there is a subtle change in how often you get hit with higher defense.

Person
07-02-2013, 10:17 AM
It affects your hero's avoidance. Hard to tell for sure, but there is a subtle change in how often you get hit with higher defense.

This indeed. It was quite noticeable when I upgraded my 89 def armor for a 126 one

Shinazueli
07-02-2013, 10:42 AM
Just finished doing a 60 swing trial 15 mins ago. I had every swing typed out, but it must have taken too long on the webpage because when I finally went to post it the page said I had entered a wrong answer for the secret question and I lost all the hits I typed in (I was the idiot for not copying the data first). Here is the summary, though:

60 swings, 18483 total damage, 308.05 average
high hit was 345 (4 times), low hit was 259 (1 time, though had some 262 hits as well).
308.05 is roughly 1/2 way between 345 and 259

Again, HS = 230, WA = 115, AA = 44

Odd. I've talked to a few of my guild mates and they also have correlated their own damage with my findings. That being said, none of us have HS that high yet. My only conclusion is that there's an undetermined dimishing returns factor in the HS portion of the calculation that just isn't apparent at lower levels of hero strength. It has to be HS because we all have the same armor and weapon.

Also, I don't take it personally. This is what science is all about.

Shinazueli
07-02-2013, 10:47 AM
60 swings should be enough to get an idea on that, IMHO. If I had to swing over 200 times just to see a single hit over 345 that would signify AA factoring into that, I would surmise that AA is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things anyway.

In the 60 hits I did, I had numerous intervals of data...like 345, 338, 324, 321, 317, 314, 307, 296, 293, 286, etc down to 259. Many of those intervals showed up multiple times. This means that HS and WA were affecting it on every single hit, since I would have never made the max (and min) of HS + WA if they weren't.

Bottom line is AA was not affecting it, else I could not have hit the minimum of 259. If AA, which was 44, was being added into the equation at all, then my mimimum hit according to your equation would have been no lower than (0.75)(230+115+44), or 291.

I had several hits in the 260's, 270's, and 280's.

And while I agree that's what your data says, if AA isn't accounted for then my own max hit of 304 isn't possible. So it has to be accounted for and is just being offset exactly by the dimishing returns on your HS.

ezinap
07-02-2013, 12:24 PM
Hi Shinazueli, you still have only room for one truth, do you?
I believe your data, but mine is in the camp of Nyx-AC.
HS = 151, weapon = 65, max hit = 216.
Armor attack is missing from the equation, and that since a long time.

All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others.
I didn't know until now, so time for a ticket.

Belcar
07-02-2013, 01:03 PM
I see my Kaithen armour is now set at 59/127, on my profile, and so the original question has been answered with a change ;)

Silent follower
07-02-2013, 01:18 PM
I see my Kaithen armour is now set at 59/127, on my profile, and so the original question has been answered with a change ;)

Yes, I have also now my Kaithen equipped with 59/127. Thank you Gree!

Nyx-AC
07-02-2013, 01:28 PM
I see my Kaithen armour is now set at 59/127, on my profile, and so the original question has been answered with a change ;)

Now for some additional data....going to get some swings on mobs in and see if my damage changed at all. 44AA to 59AA. I'm betting it won't, but I will be happy if it does change.

Note that if damage output does NOT change at all, then it has nothing to do with a HS cap, since the AA improvement, if it adds anything to the equation at all, should change the damage regardless of an HS cap/diminishing return.

We'll see...

Silent follower
07-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Now for some additional data....going to get some swings on mobs in and see if my damage changed at all. 44AA to 59AA. I'm betting it won't, but I will be happy if it does change.

Note that if damage output does NOT change at all, then it has nothing to do with a HS cap, since the AA improvement, if it adds anything to the equation at all, should change the damage regardless of an HS cap/diminishing return.

We'll see...

I killed one Kato Queen with the new armor, and no, my damage scores did not change. Of the around 20 hits I did, two of them were below 220, which shouldn't be possible if the new Kaithen armor gives me 15 more damage. Or even 3/4 of it as suggested by you Shin because that would be 10 more to the minimum. Also the max stayed in the same range as previously.

Thus I dare to say that the armor attack increase doesn't work as intended, or then we don't understand what it does.

Person
07-02-2013, 01:51 PM
My max hit did increase, I hit in the 280s max now, 102 WA 59AA 140HS

Nyx-AC
07-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Recap: HS=230, WA=115, AA=59

(using LTQ mobs for their high hp reservoirs)

Damage per swing (sequential listing, broken up into groups of 5 swings):
335
300
324
259

...going to stop right there. 259 was the previous minimum hit I had wearing the 44AA piece. As I showed earlier, 259 is 75.07% of 345, which is my combined HS + WA value.

So basically, I added 15AA and my mimimum hit remained the same. My conclusion? For me, at least, AA does nothing at all. Sad.

Silent follower
07-02-2013, 03:13 PM
Recap: HS=230, WA=115, AA=59

(using LTQ mobs for their high hp reservoirs)

Damage per swing (sequential listing, broken up into groups of 5 swings):
335
300
324
259

...going to stop right there. 259 was the previous minimum hit I had wearing the 44AA piece. As I showed earlier, 259 is 75.07% of 345, which is my combined HS + WA value.

So basically, I added 15AA and my mimimum hit remained the same. My conclusion? For me, at least, AA does nothing at all. Sad.

I have the exactly same results, the increase in AA didn't help as my minimum stayed the same just below 215. My HS is 159 and WA is 102.

But I have seen damages up to 287, thus the AA has something to do with my damage. 75% of 288 would be 212, which has been my minimum earlier. Today I also leveled getting two more to HS, therefore my minimum is 213, max being with this calculation 292. I've seen 213 several times now when killing Kato Queens, 287 is still highest I've seen.

Shinazueli
07-02-2013, 07:25 PM
Another possible theory is that like Modern War for over a year with casualty rates, there are two kinds of players : the haves and the have nots... I really hope that's not the case. I don't have anything left to attack, so I'll have to wait to compile more data.

Also, just to be sure... You restarted KA after you equipped the new armor?

Nyx-AC
07-02-2013, 09:32 PM
Another possible theory is that like Modern War for over a year with casualty rates, there are two kinds of players : the haves and the have nots... I really hope that's not the case. I don't have anything left to attack, so I'll have to wait to compile more data.

Also, just to be sure... You restarted KA after you equipped the new armor?

Yes. I restarted KA a few times since then. You might be right with the "have nots" theory, though.

Zenobia
07-03-2013, 09:50 AM
Just wanted to share the data I've been compiling for several months regarding Hero Strength, equipment attack value, and damage to mobs.

First, my method: In my Super Duper KA Spreadsheet of Death (TM), I enter the value of every non-kill hit in a column. Then add when I add to hero strength, or better my "best" weapon or armor, I add a new column. I enter 200 hits for each upgrade. I have 13 columns now (some have only 100-160 values in them but those short columns still show the same overall trend). I began at HS 105 + WA 59 + AA 35 and to date in my ss I entered through HS 135 + WA 102 + AA 44. (I have not yet added the Sword of 1000 Winters data - waiting for another LTQ to use it so because I am loathe to level up again. :) .)

What I found is this, in my experience:
Every +1 HS = +0.5 average damage.
Every +1 WA or AA = +1.5 average damage.
My maximum damage was never equal to my HS + WA + AA. Always less. For example, at 286 total HS + WA + AA (using the equipment shown as my "best" in my profile), my max damage is 272. (My min is 204 and my average & median are 237).
When I got the new armor with 59/118, it did NOTHING for my damage as compared to my "best" armor of 44/126. Similarly, when I got a 49 attack armor, it did nothing for me either. So it's clear that, unlike PvP where your best attack is used on attack and best defense on defense, your "best" armor in PvE is the highest defense one and the new armor does nothing at all for mob damage because while it is very much the best attack armor, AND best total attack+damage, the game will not equip it for attacks. Which, IMO, sucks. You get better attack armor, you get nothing for your hero as long as that 44/126 remains your "best" (emphasis on the quotes around "best").


Anyway, FWIW, that is my data and analysis of it. Pick it apart as you choose. :)

larrydavid
07-03-2013, 09:57 AM
Just wanted to share the data I've been compiling for several months regarding Hero Strength, equipment attack value, and damage to mobs.

First, my method: In my Super Duper KA Spreadsheet of Death (TM), I enter the value of every non-kill hit in a column. Then add when I add to hero strength, or better my "best" weapon or armor, I add a new column. I enter 200 hits for each upgrade. I have 13 columns now (some have only 100-160 values in them but those short columns still show the same overall trend). I began at HS 105 + WA 59 + AA 35 and to date in my ss I entered through HS 135 + WA 102 + AA 44. (I have not yet added the Sword of 1000 Winters data - waiting for another LTQ to use it so because I am loathe to level up again. :) .)

What I found is this, in my experience:
Every +1 HS = +0.5 average damage.
Every +1 WA or AA = +1.5 average damage.
My maximum damage was never equal to my HS + WA + AA. Always less. For example, at 286 total HS + WA + AA (using the equipment shown as my "best" in my profile), my max damage is 272. (My min is 204 and my average & median are 237).
When I got the new armor with 59/118, it did NOTHING for my damage as compared to my "best" armor of 44/126. Similarly, when I got a 49 attack armor, it did nothing for me either. So it's clear that, unlike PvP where your best attack is used on attack and best defense on defense, your "best" armor in PvE is the highest defense one and the new armor does nothing at all for mob damage because while it is very much the best attack armor, AND best total attack+damage, the game will not equip it for attacks. Which, IMO, sucks. You get better attack armor, you get nothing for your hero as long as that 44/126 remains your "best" (emphasis on the quotes around "best").


Anyway, FWIW, that is my data and analysis of it. Pick it apart as you choose. :)

Great analysis. You know they upgraded the armor to 59/127, right?

LowCostMonkeys
07-03-2013, 10:51 AM
So how do you know what weapon can be equipped by what class?

It' quite frustrating. My current weapon is 76 attack and 94 defence but I've just won one that has 102 attack and 92 defence. It's very annoying that my guy won't equip it.

Zenobia
07-03-2013, 11:20 AM
Great analysis. You know they upgraded the armor to 59/127, right?
No, I didn't notice that yet. Thanks for letting me know! *Does happy dance.*

Zenobia
07-03-2013, 11:32 AM
So how do you know what weapon can be equipped by what class?

It' quite frustrating. My current weapon is 76 attack and 94 defence but I've just won one that has 102 attack and 92 defence. It's very annoying that my guy won't equip it.
Nowadays it is usually indicated in the group LTE spreadsheet. In general, logic actually does apply though. If it is large and heavy looking, it's warrior class. If it's daggers or a bow, it's rogue (though it is very typical for a bow to actually be all-class). If it's an orb or tome or staff, it's for a mage.