PDA

View Full Version : Raiding - getting ridiculous



l3lade2
08-27-2013, 12:03 PM
Seriously what is the point of spending time, effort and ultimately $ to build up stats when any idiot with stats +500k lower can still win 1/2 times when raiding?

Any comments about skill points will be laughably dismissed for me, the simple fact is that this never used to be possible, now it is. Something has changed, and its getting to the point where I too am now beginning to question whether its all worth it. Many members from top guilds I know have mentioned leaving over this recently, but why is this even possible??

mmalkove
08-27-2013, 12:07 PM
I lose to people with 15% less defense than my attack so it seems to work both ways. But for raiding I think the tolerances are even worse. I accidentally attacked a guy’s lender with 25-30% more defense than I had attack and I still won! needless to say it was an accident and I didn't try a second time but I did think it was odd.

Colony Colonel
08-27-2013, 12:11 PM
yeah something changed... every unit that you have ever won from wars has a boost attatched to it, so has most guild units etc. Your actual stats could be say 1.5m whilst your stats appear to be 3m just due to the HUGE boosts that you have. when you raid someone you attack their UNBOOSTED stats with your BOOSTED stats so you're obviously going to win. This didn't happen often before because the only boost available was 20% so it didn't look as suspicious.

and it happens to the top guilds more because their boosts are say 15% beast defence (100k stats that are dismissed when someone raids you)

l3lade2
08-27-2013, 12:16 PM
I specifically said Raiding because raiding and attacking are very different. Sure when attacking you might luck out every now and then, but attacking someone with 400k or 500k better stats will result in a loss over 90% of the time.

Raiding however is where the problem is, ~50% of the time the superior stats (I.e defender) loses, and this is as ridiculous as GREEs programming abilities.

If what CC says is correct, and as much as I want to believe it there is no real way to quantify this, then it's absurd, although would explain the problem, even if GREE are unwilling to fix it.

Person
08-27-2013, 12:21 PM
I raid upto 1m higher than my attack, haven't lost in months

s.m.p
08-27-2013, 12:52 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread for what i'm going to tell.
In the last war i tried and raided a player in a guild we matched. Player had over 500k lower than me. I tried to raid his boost building and i lost all the attempts, so i tried to raid his money building and i won easily. I don't know why

Colony Colonel
08-27-2013, 01:48 PM
I specifically said Raiding because raiding and attacking are very different. Sure when attacking you might luck out every now and then, but attacking someone with 400k or 500k better stats will result in a loss over 90% of the time.

Raiding however is where the problem is, ~50% of the time the superior stats (I.e defender) loses, and this is as ridiculous as GREEs programming abilities.

If what CC says is correct, and as much as I want to believe it there is no real way to quantify this, then it's absurd, although would explain the problem, even if GREE are unwilling to fix it.

In a raid the defender uses unboosted stats but when attacked the defender uses boosted stats. either way your 'alliance defence' skill is used and has an effect on this and when attacking your 'alliance attack' skillis included (not forgetting cupids bow etc)

It is annoying and I wouldn't recommend you attack someone stronger than you because yeah you can take their level 4 manor every once in a while but you lose every fight and raid made against you!

Darth Randy
08-27-2013, 02:12 PM
There is also a lower casualty rate for raiding so there is little to lose by trying to raid people higher than you. There is clearly a different algorithm for non money buildings, I think they are the same as attacking the player themselves.

pendentive
08-27-2013, 02:16 PM
wow....*only* 500k......

*sigh*....those were the days


Being raided by players 1.5Mil below your stats is much, much less fun.

procsyzarc
08-27-2013, 03:02 PM
Never really raided in KA but in the other games it always has taken less to raid someone. Used to be 50% ie 500k defense is 50/50 when attacked by someone with 250k.

Don't think it is still 50% but is still way lower somewhere between 60-80% would be my guess. Just tried in MW I have 1.1m attack versus someone with 1.1m defense I was 6w 6l from 12 attacks. For raids against the against the same person I won 100 straight with no losses

aphroKEN
08-27-2013, 04:49 PM
Taking face values in stat differences is where your error is. It is calculated proportionally. An attacker only needs an attack value of about 50% of your defence to succeed in a raid.

e.g. 500,000A vs 1 million D. Attacker will succeed raid. 1A vs 500,001D. Defender will succeed. Both examples have a difference of 500k. But clearly the proportions are not the same. So please express the attacker's stat as a proportion of your defence, not give us face values.

aphroKEN
08-27-2013, 04:51 PM
In a raid the defender uses unboosted stats but when attacked the defender uses boosted stats. either way your 'alliance defence' skill is used and has an effect on this and when attacking your 'alliance attack' skillis included (not forgetting cupids bow etc)

It is annoying and I wouldn't recommend you attack someone stronger than you because yeah you can take their level 4 manor every once in a while but you lose every fight and raid made against you!

This isn't correct. I remember back then when stat % boosts were scarce, raids can still be won with ~50% of the enemy's defence covered.

Fredcole
08-27-2013, 05:11 PM
I got raided by a guy with attack 2,3m lower then my defence. Happens all the time theese days. Gree is cheating us big time on this. You "pay" to get something that doesnt work. Whats the point of spending x amount of gems for nothing?

Gree better fix this or a lot of people will give up this game.

Rocco69
08-27-2013, 05:29 PM
Agree on raiding lately, ive found why bother checking stats as ill likely win anyway. Sure i might take a few losses, might lose a few worthless gold units, but ill still win.
What they should do is make defense buildings relevant. Put a few lvl 10 bunkers near my manor and try to get me!

Darth Randy
08-27-2013, 05:35 PM
Agree on raiding lately, ive found why bother checking stats as ill likely win anyway. Sure i might take a few losses, might lose a few worthless gold units, but ill still win.
What they should do is make defense buildings relevant. Put a few lvl 10 bunkers near my manor and try to get me!

They are not relevant? why the big blue circle of lag when I upgrade, move or accidentally touch one then?

custos
08-27-2013, 05:39 PM
I read somewhere how in one of Gree's other games (CC I believe) that the win/loss formula for raids or attacks depended on the proportion of your defense that was made up from your defense buildings or character defense. I can't remember exactly but it went something like this...

When you look at your stats and your opponents stats all you see is the total A/D numbers (boosted) but no breakdown of where those numbers come from.

When you raid, your opponents defense is made up of his defense buildings plus some percentage of his character defense (50% ?). When you attack, your opponents defense is made up of his character's defense plus some percentage of his building defense.

Hence, in CC, if you raid someone with the same defense as your attack and they have a lot of high level defense buildings you are less likely to succeed. If they have no defense buildings the raids are easier. Conversely, if you attack someone in CC who has high defense, but built on lots of high level defense buildings, you are more likely to win, even if their raw defense number is higher than your attack.

In CC it's different because there is no limit on defense buildings. But I have tried to raid people (their D = my A) with lots of defense buildings and failed, whereas I've raided people with much higher D, but not much in the way of defense buildings, and succeeded easily. So I think the explanation might be true.

In KA it's hard to be sure if the same formula is used, but given that defense buildings in KA have a proximity effect I would suspect it is. In KA most of us have 95% or more of our defense coming from character defense and not much from buildings. Perhaps that's why it's possible it raid people with seemingly much higher defense that would otherwise be expected. Maybe it's worth upgrading those "useless" defense buildings after all?

Rocco69
08-27-2013, 05:41 PM
They add very little to the equation. If i surrounded a building with every defense unit i have you MIGHT lose a unit after you successfully raid me anyway.
They do something just not a noticeable something,

Rocco69
08-27-2013, 05:43 PM
Hhhhmmm. Good point. Still worried they don't do much but maybe i should waste a few weeks upgrading some to see what happens. Maybe not

custos
08-28-2013, 01:10 AM
They add very little to the equation. If i surrounded a building with every defense unit i have you MIGHT lose a unit after you successfully raid me anyway.
They do something just not a noticeable something,

How do you know?

E-I
08-28-2013, 04:46 AM
Here is my take on it... The more people you can raid, the more gems you will spend on stamina recharges. That, and the stat inflation for top players is so ridiculously high now that they need to at least make the game somewhat challenging.

AllFather Odin
08-28-2013, 04:48 AM
What about the defense skill point? How much does that is counted into the raid (if it even does...)?

It's all a dream
08-28-2013, 04:52 AM
What about the defense skill point? How much does that is counted into the raid (if it even does...)?

this might answer your question, look at the post of McDoc
http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?38449-Things-we-learned-From-Chef-Pepe-(aka-CCMark)/page7&highlight=skill+points+mark