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View Full Version : A Theory: Why we, the players, are killing Kingdom Age... with our Minis.



Lys
01-02-2014, 10:13 AM
PLEASE REMAIN CIVIL IN THIS THREAD!

So, before you go off on me, this is a purely hypothetical point I want to examine, and it's been on my mind after seeing a few things around the forum. Primarily, the following:
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- Why no raise in level cap
- Why the massive experience gain all around in events
- Why no new weapons
- the 'penalties' to llp in general
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The first thing that got my mind thinking about this was this thread right here. (http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?78650-Gree-any-plans-on-New-LE-Buildings-amp-Level-increase..) CJ replied rather promptly, and gave a reason as to why there were no level caps instituted yet in Kingdom Age.


"The reason we don't increase the level cap in KA but do in MW is because KA already has more of a cone-shaped level distribution, and raising the level cap would make that worse. If we make alterations to the rivals list algorithm that makes level less of an important factor (or add some of the requested changes to make leveling more positive) we'll revisit that."

CJ54
_
Now, for those of you unfamiliar with the shape of a cone (although I'd hope everyone knows and understands what they are...) they are smallest at the top, and largest at the bottom. This cone concept is widely used in businesses, especially in regards to employees vs managers vs higher management. CJ was using it to refer to the level distribution within Kingdom Age. Basically, the number of 200s at the top is still a small percentage in relation to the userbase of the game. Typically, in a game looking at things with the cone system, you see more and more players reach max level, to a point where even with new users joining, you have a large bulge at the top of the cone from those at max level.

Minis have thrown that to the wind, however. In the last 2-4 months, people have created a whirlwind of fresh accounts to maximize their Attack/Defense per level, as well as to negate the penalties they associate with higher levels. Primarily, just one of them: CP in Wars. That's truly the only penalty that have driven people to creating minis to turn into main accounts, but the penalties are something entirely else. This large wave of new, low level accounts with no increase in the amount of capped players has completely destroyed the need GREE might have for increasing the level cap within Kingdom Age.

So, you have this large amount of fresh, new, and somewhat powerful low level accounts that have burgeoned the level 50-100 tier, while the accounts they had previously used are slowly being retired from the 100-200 level range. This is the start of all the problems, essentially stemming from how CP gained during war is calculated.

Now, to the next part. People have been complaining about a lack of new weapons, which would mean increased damage done to mods during LTQs, which would mean less EXP gain for more stats essentially. GREE can't very well tell people to stop making new accounts if they already have one, so how might they quietly combat this mini spree? Why, by cutting off one thing that makes finishing LTQs easier: weapons. Without high damage weapons, one has to rely on their Hero's Strength statistic to kill enemies on the maps. Since people are already ignoring all kills outside of LTQs, it's the only place they can try to regain this balance.

So, less damage means more experience. However, there was a bunch of complaining about how higher levels brought a higher energy cost with them, and it was 'impossible' to finish some without gemming for the low level players. Yes, those folks who legitimately joined the game are getting screwed, but the root of things here are the minis folks started. So, moving on along, GREE realized that perhaps a high energy cost per mob in each stage was the wrong way to go. Enter the Tidings of Solace LTQ. Almost no energy cost, although the retaliation is huge (possibly a bug, maybe not). The key thing to note is that this LTQ could be completed by nearly everyone, so long as they had patience and sufficient time around a power socket to keep their device charged. The EXP gain was high high high, which again is an attempt to level people to 'fix' the cone's level distribution. Other LTQs have also focused on higher EXP gain, such as the last Epic Boss event, and prior LTQs as well. So, higher EXP gain to force people into leveling.

Now, note this. If we weren't so paranoid about avoiding every potential EXP gain, and tried to master maps, attack other people and raid them on a regular basis, and actually play with all of the components of the game, this high EXP gain during LTQs would not be happening... (maybe). Because a lot of people are completely avoiding every source of EXP gain there is in the game, GREE is trying to make them level. Face it, minis are ignoring every extraneous source of experience gain there is, and there is no denying that fact.

So, there you have it. My theory as to why the low-level players have all of these penalties being focused at them. It's because of our own greed (hah, irony!) at wanting to capitalize our stats, to therefore capitalize our CP gain during war. Longtime players are getting discouraged and quitting, people are whining 24/7 on the forums and causing a general atmosphere of hatred and stupidity that drives others away from the game. We are self-destructing on our own.

GREE, I'd suggest new algorithms for CP gain in war-time. The current, level based system is potentially the root of all of your problems in Kingdom Age.

(NOTE!!! I understand that there are legitimate issues with GREE's actions, in the game, and other stuff that also cause some issues for the community and players. This is specifically looking at just this one facet.)

Again, please remain civil with each other.

Lys

Iron Maiden
01-02-2014, 10:26 AM
Wonderful thread and lots of great ideas behind it. I agree- The minis are definitely changing the game. Thank you for a nice point!

larrydavid
01-02-2014, 10:27 AM
Well said. Idk, maybe that's just the way this game is to be played - HLP covering LLP on every event besides war and obviously LLP covering HLP.

Honestly I think GREE's goal is to force people to create such strong LLP that they have no need for HLP. Why would they do this? Because the only way to make an insane LLP is through lots and lots of gems. Or parking it in a top 2 guild which is obviously a lot of gems too.

Edit: and before you say "oh I created a strong LLP without gems". Let me know if it is 200k attack to level ratio otherwise it isn't the insane I am talking about.

Also, I wouldn't say we the players are killing KA by creating minis. It is necessary because gree is by penalizing HLP on epic bosses and cp.

Dogs Pizza
01-02-2014, 10:33 AM
The large number of minis have widened the base of the "cone", a vast majority of those minis are only being created to kill bosses and then are abandoned. It may appear to Gree that tons of people are joining the game but that is just not the case. There may be new people joining, but that number is small, most minis are being created because of the level cap and the war and boss killing penalty for being a high level player. Why is it my mini with very low stats could kill 100 with 1 free hit while my main at level 136 with 20m stats struggled to get to 100 even with over 1k gems? Why would we not want to play minis instead?

Now with the crazy explosion of stats of the heaviest gem spenders from the most recent raid boss I can only see the boss tiers getting even more difficult. Again, all this does is make players want to play mini accounts instead. If the level cap was removed and the extreme war points penalty was removed I think we would see a renewed interest in playing high level accounts.

larrydavid
01-02-2014, 10:36 AM
The large number of minis have widened the base of the "cone", a vast majority of those minis are only being created to kill bosses and then are abandoned. It may appear to Gree that tons of people are joining the game but that is just not the case. There may be new people joining, but that number is small, most minis are being created because of the level cap and the war and boss killing penalty for being a high level player. Why is it my mini with very low stats could kill 100 with 1 free hit while my main at level 136 with 20m stats struggled to get to 100 even with over 1k gems? Why would we not want to play minis instead?

Now with the crazy explosion of stats of the heaviest gem spenders from the most recent raid boss I can only see the boss tiers getting even more difficult. Again, all this does is make players want to play mini accounts instead. If the level cap was removed and the extreme war points penalty was removed I think we would see a renewed interest in playing high level accounts.

I'm getting turned on by the awesomeness of this thread.

Person
01-02-2014, 11:13 AM
i see an infinit circle, because the level cap and the existing penalties for being high level havent been changed, people create mini's and because of that the level cap and penalties for being high level havent beeb changed.

And i dont see a party which could change it.

Krayt
01-02-2014, 11:30 AM
Lys I will say I am guilty of what you say.
However, everything you say is dead on

Zenobia
01-02-2014, 11:54 AM
What a WONDERFUL, thought-provoking thread! Thank you, Lys, and everyone who analyzed the OP and added thought to it. It seems to me, in summary that:


Gree chose to penalize high-level players with extremely low war CP. Despite frequent and vehement opposition to this for the last year, they refused to remove that penalty.
In reaction to that, players one by one started choosing to create minis, who can get good CP in wars (as well as actually get somewhere on the Epic Boss after Gree inflated it's difficulty absurdly). We would never have jumped on the mini bandwagon en masse had Gree not refused to retract the HLP CP penalty.
In reaction to that, instead of nurturing this new source of income, and/or eliminating the need for minis by ceasing to penalize HLPs in terms of CP, Gree chose instead to do their best to kill the mini AND keep the CP penalty for HLPs.
Instead of making the game more enjoyable for either HLP or mini, they do their best to continue to suck the fun out of BOTH. We all wanted a character that can succeed in all aspects of the game. They refused that so we kept one character that is good for half the game and created another that is good for the other half. They don't like our work-around to make the game enjoyable so they kill the mini rather than make either type of character more fun. Extremely disappointing. But if they want to kill my mini, if they actually allow my L200 a chance at success in all aspects of the game, I'd actually be okay with that. Heck, I'd allow my mini to level and have 2 HLPs.

SOG Will
01-02-2014, 02:08 PM
Awesome thoughts. You would think that with so many people discussing the obviously lacking "penalty" to HLP's that Gree would give it some thought and work out the problems. (yes that was dripping with sarcasm)

The first and most obvious fix is as you said to completely change the way points are earned during the war. HLP's should earn more not less points. The current system is ridiculous.

The second problem that was and is constantly mentioned is that LLP's can easily finish the boss events while HLP's can barely make 20-30 kills without a ton of gems.

Even as I type I have to ask myself...why. Another question I don't have the answer to. We are "not" being "penalized" by Gree for playing their game and for leveling. They are not going to fix the "penalty" that doesn't exist.

Jolt
01-02-2014, 03:20 PM
Well written.

plavine
01-02-2014, 04:51 PM
I have seen elsewhere on this board many times responses from gree monitors that Gree dies not consider high level players penalized. Until they do , we are sitting ducks for LLP .
This game expanded quicker what they were ready for. It started when rewards for the original concept ( levels 1-5 of each area+PvP rewards)were too low. then the stats of dragons and trebuckets were tripled. Then the LTQ with inflated rewards for gem users came out , then the epic bosses ... Ect . He bottom line is if gree wants to change thing they will( example - the current LTQ ). As long as there are big spenders out there , the changes will be slow and far apart .

the_bob
01-02-2014, 06:19 PM
PLEASE REMAIN CIVIL IN THIS THREAD!
*snip*
Again, please remain civil with each other.

Lys

I can't take anything you say seriously when you say to remain civil, yet you post drivel like this:

http://www.funzio.com/forum/showthread.php?78862-Tidings-of-Solstice&p=1136312&viewfull=1#post1136312

Vclone
01-02-2014, 06:51 PM
I must say that you nailed it, Lys. As one of my oldest KA friends, I applaud you on this well written theory. I cannot add more than what has been said above, but I believe your theory and this self-defeating circle are true.

Part of what I love about this game is its (questionable) development. Think back a year and what has happened to this game. Our actions in response to Gree's development has created a feedback loop to change the game in unexpected ways.

garen argon
01-03-2014, 02:46 PM
Awesome, awesome post.

I see this game as all about cause and effect and although I disagree with your original assessment; that the players caused this...i would assert that gree provided a tactical advantage with the creation of llp's; and players seeking any advantage flocked to do so....everything else posted is accurate.

Master Stormzs
01-03-2014, 03:03 PM
Wow a very good post Lys! I agree on 99% of the points, hopefully the Gree mods will forward this to their developers (sorry no pun intended). This may explain all the silly exp "prizes" in the RB

Zenobia
01-03-2014, 04:33 PM
Awesome, awesome post.

I see this game as all about cause and effect and although I disagree with your original assessment; that the players caused this...i would assert that gree provided a tactical advantage with the creation of llp's; and players seeking any advantage flocked to do so....everything else posted is accurate.

ITA with you on that. We created the mini ONLY in reaction to Gree giving HLPs the CP penalty they did, and refusing to change that despite constant outcry against it. That is where the problem began. Minis were a reaction to the problem Gree created. And instead of fixing the problem and allowing players to create 1 account that can do it all (rather than need a HLP for half the game and a LLP for the other half)... instead of fixing that, they just try to kill the LLP withOUT allowing the HLP to do what the LLP can. It's short-sighted and moronic IMO.

If they want us to drop our minis, the way to do that and keep us in the game is to empower our HLPs to be able to do what only the mini can now do.

Spi
01-03-2014, 04:35 PM
Do you call KA a game? Have a look what real developers make on all platforms and you will see that this a just a sorry excuse to get more money out of your pockets.

Just tapping things is something you could teach a monkey, but at least he won't be that stupid to spend is real money.

Join the GREEDIGNADIOS, all founders all called on GroupMe, if Gree doesn't change it back to a real game as it was with Funzio...then the players will pull out the plug.

You're invited to my new group 'War boycot 31/Jan - 03/Feb' on GroupMe. Click here to join: https://groupme.com/join_group/6535558/

Jon G
01-04-2014, 08:55 PM
Definitely agree.

Without a Paddle?
01-04-2014, 10:08 PM
Good points and analysis of the evolution of the game. I think the problem gree has ran into with minis is the evolution of stats in the game. Currently, I can just get a new player, have scratch offs for a few months and get 500k a/d at level 10. That 6 months ago would be insane and 18 months ago would almost put me in FUN at level 10.
This inflation is making older characters obsolete unless they have really been built up.

garen argon
01-06-2014, 11:42 AM
Good points and analysis of the evolution of the game. I think the problem gree has ran into with minis is the evolution of stats in the game. Currently, I can just get a new player, have scratch offs for a few months and get 500k a/d at level 10. That 6 months ago would be insane and 18 months ago would almost put me in FUN at level 10.
This inflation is making older characters obsolete unless they have really been built up.

again; whose fault is that? just some interesting points...

devs made guilds, then wars and allowed top guilds to get all items won, thus giving top guilds huge advantages.
players evolved and gemmers took huge advantage.
devs made cp values minimal for high level players (150+)
players evolved and created minis
devs gave 50 win and streak rewards
players evolved and created streak guilds to take advantage
devs created raid bosses with huge boosts
players evolved
devs made heroic raid bosses almost impossible for most guilds to earn
players evolved to get them if you want to pay
devs created epic units from raid bosses
players evolved and farmed lvl 100 bosses for huge gains

anyone sense a pattern here...

cheetah
01-06-2014, 12:00 PM
again; whose fault is that? just some interesting points...

devs made guilds, then wars and allowed top guilds to get all items won, thus giving top guilds huge advantages.
players evolved and gemmers took huge advantage.
devs made cp values minimal for high level players (150+)
players evolved and created minis
devs gave 50 win and streak rewards
players evolved and created streak guilds to take advantage
devs created raid bosses with huge boosts
players evolved
devs made heroic raid bosses almost impossible for most guilds to earn
players evolved to get them if you want to pay
devs created epic units from raid bosses
players evolved and farmed lvl 100 bosses for huge gains

anyone sense a pattern here...
Darwin arguments here???? I guess we all evolve eventually