Ok serious thread Economy not ideology .

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  1. #1
    Master of Musings
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    Ok serious thread Economy not ideology .

    So true Communisme doesn't work , proven by fall of Soviet Union , people got lazy don't work harder cause no reward in working harder , other then a piece of tin medal for being more productive .

    So true Capitalisme ... is still under debate , since in the end Couple of Cooperations rule the world .
    But there was never ever True Capitalisme , since it means no government involvement , supply and demand .
    No rules , we all understand that ..

    So what are we seeing in China India Asia a hybrid model .

    But why is US pushing everybody to a economical system that is doomed ?
    Instead of adapting to a hybrid model themself !
    Has Capitalisme gone too far in the US and majority of western world , that it can't be turned around ?
    Well enough economist on this forum , anybody want to share insights ?

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    ~crickets~

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    US needs to build more laundromats and then night clubs

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    Master of Musings mxz's Avatar
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    I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).

    Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).

    The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.
    #smug

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    Verbose Veteran BOS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxz View Post
    I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).

    Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).

    The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.
    + 10,000

    Couldn't have said it better myself! Nicely done.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxz View Post
    I don't think you understand capitalism. Or communism, for that matter. Communism is a political implementation of the economic theory of socialism (as is Fascism).

    Capitalism isn't exactly coupled to politics. You could argue libertarianism is pretty close, I guess. Realize that capitalism (an economic theory) relies on laws to allow it to work. What we see in economies like the US which claim "capitalism" is actually a fair amount of socialism. Capitalism is generally thought of as free for all because it is far less restricted than socialist economies, which, by definition are run or directed by the State's interests rather than consumers'. A truer implementation of capitalism more heavily relies on public opinion, courts and a free press to keep people from cheating (rather than outlawing or over-regulating everything, which incidentally favors large corporations).

    The US economy is not doomed because it has gone too capitalist, but rather its become too socialist.

    Like said at start mxz am not talking about Ideology , look US economy is not doomed , since 1/3 of the economy will always revolve around the military , tax towards military comes back into free or private sectors , aside from solving unemployement , something the historian really tought about after ww2 , how .britain and germany (during the nazi regime) reigned ...

    So it is the 2/3 left of the US economical system .
    Now you think socialist system , infact it is in reverse , as long as things go well goverment should stay out of it , but if things go badly we need Bail out .
    In a true capitalistic economical system , there shouldn't be a bail out , neither should there be government interference . if you can't make it adios somebody else will benefit from your mistake .
    So remember majority of Europe is not a war economy ...

    Infact most of our system is social economy , most European country , still have government hospitals , insurance , for the basic need , well in American word the Obama Care package .
    Infact it is a very solid proven system, especially when I compare it to Netherlands who went privaterising like mad to follow the American system .
    And while for the top everything is all fine and dandy , double profit offcourse by having government funding + the bonus of private sector .

    The consumers and average citizens are dissatisfied , since majority past 30 remember how it was in the past , public hospitals , public transportation service ,
    Now sure there are benefits to certain services going private , telecommunication , the postal service .
    The airlines , but certain things should have stayed state owned .

    Maybe this makes it more clear what I am saying .
    Last edited by Dravak; 10-13-2012 at 09:32 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #7
    Master of Musings mxz's Avatar
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    I understand the argument for state ownership of certain things but it breaks down really quickly when you look at them in depth. The State's main interest is staying in power - whereas a private business has a priority to stay in business and grow. There's a few ways to do that, but the easiest way is to provide a product/service that people want. Since the State isn't incentivized to grow their product they have no incentive to keep their customers happy, lower costs or innovate. Again, their main interest is to retain and grow their own power and influence by buying votes - which is mainly done via wealth transfer from one group to another favored group (e.g. the wealthy, the poor, JP Morgan Chase, Deutsche Bank, Solyndra) and regulations (which end up with similar results).

    There's no question in my mind that a privately run health care industry was the greatest thing the Americans provided to the world outside the internet. Obama Care will not only hurt the US but the rest of the world, as well. If I lived in a 3rd world country I'd be extra-pissed at how selfish the small percentage of Americans that supported this, and other socialist programs, were/are.
    #smug

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    Articulate Author Mikecore's Avatar
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    The end of capitalism! Episode 9000123456789123... At the end, capitalism survives! For once again!...

    P.s. socialism is good until you run out of other people's money! Socialism is synonym to destruction! true story!
    HTC veteran

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    Survival of the fittest.

    It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.

    Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.

    It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.

    Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*

    Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
    Last edited by Burn; 10-14-2012 at 04:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burn View Post
    Survival of the fittest.

    It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.

    Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.

    It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.

    Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*

    Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
    Read any Hegel lately?
    Carpe Jugulum

    "nothing personal. don't know who you are." - v

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhusagar View Post
    Read any Hegel lately?
    No, and in honesty I've never heard of him, but just about to Google for info.

    Edit: is this the correct Hegel? http://philosophy.eserver.org/hegel-summary.html
    Last edited by Burn; 10-14-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burn View Post
    No, and in honesty I've never heard of him, but just about to Google for info.

    Edit: is this the correct Hegel? http://philosophy.eserver.org/hegel-summary.html
    Yes. The unintentional daddy of Marxism
    Carpe Jugulum

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burn View Post
    Survival of the fittest.

    It's how nature works. It's how life works. It should be how business works.

    Just need a structure, some rules of engagement, and then let the best man win.

    It's what I hate about Political Correctness, particularly in schools where 'winning' is now frowned upon in preference to everyone 'taking part' - utter utter bullsh!t, that can only subdue the stong and validate the weak, with an end result being the creation of a generation of lilly-livered wimps who expect everything to be 'fair', and handed to them on a plate.

    Political Correctness? Fairness? Equal opportunities for all? *spit*

    Life ain't fair. Man up, be all you can be, or GTFO. Winners win. Losers whine. Simple as that.
    Survival of the Fittest

    It's very interesting how a "well read person" thinks society should fall back to natures law. With out the rule of law, where would we be? If I came to your house and stole you food and you could do nothing about it, am I a "winner" and you a "loser"? If you call the police are you whining? If you invent something and a corporation comes along and steals it, are they winners and you a loser? If you sue are you a whiner? What if a corporation, in the name of profit, sells you a defective product, should it be "buyer beware" or should you have some recourse?

    It's easy to pound you chest and say "man up" untill something effects you, then what?

    Laws and regulations ARE what allows society to grow. Think about it!

  14. #14
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    Dhusagar.... I read that Hegel summary I lnked to from top to bottom, seems interesting, and I like much of it.

    My thinking is much more straight forward; we are all fundamentally a biological database, we inherit a basic database structure pre-programmed and provisionally populated by our genetics - perhaps this what we refer to as Animal Instinct?

    Thereafter every move we make is a result of a cause and effect type analysis of data we put into the database as a direct result of our experiences as we go through life. This structure can be altered only by our own individual intelligence, the level of which allows to us to create new options not previously defined in our database - perhaps this is what we refer to as Human Consciousness?

    Whatever branch of philosophy, psychology or theology is most related to my above blah blah, let me know, I'd like to read it, because the above is only a theory concocted in my own warped mind, when high on weed no doubt.

    Sorry, I've gone off at a wibbly wobbly tangent, feel free to ignore me.

  15. #15
    Supreme Scholar Dipstik's Avatar
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    Isnt Hegel a hot actress?
    Quote Originally Posted by murf View Post
    Dippy, may be a little harsh in this thread, but he's right...
    Still mad at Bostick.

    I'll be back when the moderation is reasonable. Enjoy the forum you created, Gree.

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